PLAYERS: 4-0 , COACHES: 0-4

[Spearmint Rhino]

I can stand it no longer, feel like I have to get this off my chest after yesterday's third overtime loss!

I am tired of hearing how the players "didn't get it done!" It is abundantly clear to me that the coaching staff is not putting our players in a position to win games. Ladies and Gentlemen, our offense STINKS.

O'Brien talked about "offensive sets" during the pregame yesterday. That immediately raised a red flag for me. We don't need offensive sets! We need a CONCEPT for an offense that brings out the best in our personnel!

Bluntly speaking, we need to run a straight motion offense. Pass and screen away! The passer makes the pass and screens to the opposing player, the bigs screen for each other or a single big moves out to the wing or UP to the key. As each pass is made a screen is set and you have a myriad of openings.

On the inbound as we walk the ball up you set the 5 at the high post and run OFF of him for a screen and roll or secondary break for the wing to SLASH and/or simply cut, taking the defense with them, thus opening lanes for the PG and the BIG GUY!

This is basic stuff, people!

As the big moves UP the lane to the top of key, the WING player on his side can SCRUB off of him and CURL in the lane to receive a pass and make a jumper, drive or pass to the BIG as he rolls.

If the shot is not there, pass it out and DIVE under the big as the opposite wing begins a similar move.

If the BIG guy continues this pattern (AS HE SHOULD every possesion regardless of the outcome and regardless of who finishes), you end up with the opportunity to create a play called a DIVE for the big where he starts up and stops. He either gets the alley oop (a pass OVER his guy), or he gets a bounce pass for a dunkl

ALL OF THIS COMES OUT OF THE MOTION and SO MUCH MORE!

* You can run a 2-man game

* You can run pick-and-roll

* Anything you want comes out of this

* It is the BEST offense in the land, ESPECIALLY if you lack great athletes

It's called "motion" for a reason! You are ALWAYS moving! You never stop and as a result literally hundreds of sets present themselves, as well as mismatches.

O'Brien is running a version of the FLEX offense right now.

But we aren't even doing that right!

The motion offense on the other hand, makes PLAYERS out of EVERYONE!

Kansas uses it to perfection. I doubt they do anything different all season. The Jayhawks do not have great athletes this year, but they will contend because Bill Self RECOGNIZES WHAT HE HAS and he is maximizing THE SKILL SET!

That's the mysterious thing with the motion offense: YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A GREAT PLAYER.

The offense makes you look good!!!

And allows you to WIN GAMES!!!

Players can be poor decision makers, but the motion offense puts them in spots to score, regardless.

Let's take a look at Amorrow Morgan:

An off-balance out-of-control athlete for the most part with a less-than-desirable jumpshot. However, in a motion offense he would be a star....dunk after dunk and floater after floater because that's what the 2 guard would do. If Amorrow worked on his shot he would be able to rain 3's and pull-up jumpers within the motion offense. Amorrow would be a STAR because the offense sets it up that way!

In addition, the motion offense - and this is really important - is ALWAYS going to the basket. Therefore, rebounding is a cakewalk because they are ALWAYS falling in your lap, not bouncing EVERYWHERE.

The next thing you know you are outleting for layups and the opposing team needs a time out!

There are many ways to teach a motion offense. That's because there are a multitude of ways to run one. The appeal of the motion is that you can configure it to your team. It can be a very free style, read-and-react approach or just limited to a few things that your team has had time to work on. Note the POST PLAYERS and how active they are in this offense!

The motion is based on cutting, reading the defense and back doors. This system has evolved into an offensive attack adopted by John Calipari, Larry Brown, Lawrence Frank and hundreds of coaches at all levels all around the world.

The Bengals ought to run it as well!!!

 

[spartan]

coach bobby knight ladies and gentlemen.. coach bobby knight....

jeez this already? how many games have been played? the (negative) bandwagon is taking off early this bengal basketbal season....

 

[baller1]

By claiming that we are running the Flex offense you have officially proven that you have ZERO basketball knowledge. We run nothing close to Flex. I've watched every minute of every game and we have yet to run a flex cut let alone the flex offense.

I'm sick and tired of everyone wanting offenses that get everyone involved. THIS IS NOT CHURCH BALL!! We need to get our best players involved and in positions to score. I don't care if the scoring is balanced, I care that we have the best chance to win. I thought we played our best game last night and to me that's means we're improving which is good enough for me at this point of the season.

 

[protege]

this is pretty dead on - I don’t care what time of year it is, everyone has a right to be pissed, we don’t have a D1 win - we have lost 3 straight ALL winnable games, we don’t have an inbounds play, we don’t manage the clock, we don’t have an offense!

it would be different if we weren’t seeing the same thing every game, but nothing changes except the lineup, we start different players and then sub them every 45 seconds, players are yanked for what?

Donnie Carson spends more time looking at the bench to see if he is coming out than he does watching his opponent

how many subs did we have in the first 5 minutes 7? than they go on a 15 point run, good thing they stopped making shots or we would have lost by 30, we certainly DIDNT do anything to slow them down, they SIMPLY missed shots!

20 seconds to go, we throw the ball away! NO TIMEOUT is called, we could have played for last shot in front of our bench, instead because we have guys on the floor who don’t understand time and score and we don’t have a play designed for 1 score, we throw it AWAY!

hell we probably would never have gotten the ball back in bounds since we NEVER screen for the inbound!

 

[bengalcub]

Protoge--this is what you said earlier, I still can't figure out to quote on this thing:

"...much better balance, much better offense, we will get better." Why the change?

As for Carson looking over at the bench wondering if he would be pulled...he played 44 of 50 possible minutes and he did not start. How many times did he get the hook?

Now let me ask this or these things:

What about the run to get back in it? What about holding the opponent to four points in the last 8 minutes of the half? What if Carson flipped the ball to a wide open Busma for a dunk at the end of regulation? What if the pass after the steal on a break-away jam was converted in overtime? How many subs were used in the 2nd half and what was the purpose of the subs? What about O'Brien taking credit for loss on the post game show for poor coaching decisions that he felt he made during the game. What about getting the big man involved?

The silver lining is that we as a message board community have 4-5 folks that could teach O'Brien how to coach. So, this is all fixable. It is simply time to make an appointment will Valias to offer up a solution. FIRE O'Brien, NOW...that stupid, arrogant, degrading, cursing son-of-a-bitch that he is. Sell the house, sell the farm. The Bengal Den is NOW calling the shots--and deciding all that is right and all that is wrong.

Funny thing is WE never call the play. WE never take the shot. WE never screen for the inbound. WE can cut and paste our way to a 20 win season. WE, WE, WE all the way home.

Some frustration is fine and expected--but the constant bitching and moaning? It is more pathetic than being 1-3 with three overtime losses. BTW this team is 1-3 as a team together, not 4-0 as players and 0-4 as a coaching staff.

The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity,
the optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.

 

[baller1]

Well said Cub. We all need to be patient as the coaches figure out this stuff. We will get better and OB always has his guys ready for conference play.

 

[BengalLove]

One thing that bothers me about ISU fans and some on this message board is that it is Ok to lose in pre-conference. All I hear is that we have a tough schedule and that a couple wins would be good. Just because ISU in a mid level D-1 school does not mean ISU has to settle. ISU just lost 3 winable games in a row and all I hear is that it is Ok , "we will get better", "things will change" , "we will be ready for the BSC", " Be patient", etc.
Things are not changing , it is chaos on the offensive end, no organized method of breaking a press, and there is never any rythym or flow because the subbing pattern seems like hockey. Everyone seems to loves Coach OB, and I have liked him as well, but I am starting to wonder about him. But like everyone is saying, "just be patient"

 

[crockett]

We went to man to man on defense to stop them from scoring. It showed we have the athletes to play zone or man to man. We were in a zone and they shot us out of it. We came back and played very well. As for the offense we missed a wide open shot in regulation. Coach cannot shot for us. We ran all sorts of screens and give and go's. We could have never got away from those guys otherwise. We lost this game because we threw the ball away too much and at the wrong times. Some players did not come to the ball on offense and that will improve with time and playing together.

We had balanced scoring like everyone on here wanted. The thing that cost us the game was 2 TO's at about the 4 minute mark in the second half. I don't see any need to panic folks.

We now have a big guy to go to that can score and rebound. We have a great player in Morgan. Say whatever you want, but this guy is a great player. Stucki is a great player and gives it his all. Felix showed us what he is capable of and we'll see much more of him. And what can you say about Meech? he is a smart active ball player. Carson will start nailing the shots soon, Kilpatrick played better but not smart with the ball. Austin's just trying too hard. What I saw last night was not a lack of effort but a team trying too hard and a little panicked at some unopportune times. And, a pretty good team in LBS. I cannot understand why people don't come to these great games. They are not on Sunday!!!

 

[bengalcub]

I don't think it is okay to lose at all. But I want to know--what were your expectations in the non-conference portion of the schedule?

The press and offensive sets or the substitution patterns of the coach did not cost ISU the game last night in my humble opinion. Furthermore, ISU appears to me, to have improved in every game. And they seem to be making adjustments to there weaknesses from game to game. But in the end--all teams have strength and all teams have a weakness. ISU is geared as a team to be defensive--not to blow people out. I saw movement on offense last night. I saw a team that found more of a rotation and I saw a team that shot the ball well from the floor and rebounded well. In the end, I had my concerns as well, but I have the confidence that this team and Coach will continue to get better.

Basketball is a game of runs and you win the game by scoring one more point than your opponent. This team is 3 points in regulation away from being 4-0.

O'Brien has clearly stated that he schedules tough non conference opponents to prepare the team for conference. Let me ask you--has he not delivered in conference? Can you name a Bengal head basketball coach with a better conference record in his first two seasons? For that matter--how many times has Idaho State defended as well as they have under O'Brien? This guy is a 3 time National Champion and is a member of the JC Coaches Hall of Fame. Although he is rough around the edges and a bit bull headed at times--do you really believe for a second that this guy cannot coach?

Look, I get frustrated at times and sometimes I post on emotion as well. But in the end as I sit back, I think this Coach and this team will get it done.


2008-09 Big Sky Men's Basketball Standings

School
Portland State 3-0
Eastern Washington 3-1
Montana 2-3
Montana State 1-2
Idaho State 1-3
Weber State 1-3
Northern Arizona 1-4
Northern Colorado 0-2
Sacramento State 0-4

 

[bengalcub]

Crockett--I feel much the same as you do.

3 points away from 3-0--but in the same breath, probably only 3-4 wins in the non-conference portion of the schedule. Trust me--this is only the beginning of the finger pointing and panic.

 

[isusuperfan]

We DO have the toughest schedule, Bengallove. Out of all the teams in the Conference. Yes, the losing sucks. Fans really do need to be patient and get behind the team. Nothing comes of US criticizing the team and the coaches, because it's true: WE DON'T KNOW JACK! Watching ESPN and SportsCenter does not qualify you as a certified know-it-all.

SO GET WITH IT!

Spartan, cub and baller are all correct.

Spearmint Rhino, you are not a coach sir.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

By claiming that we are running the Flex offense you have officially proven that you have ZERO basketball knowledge. We run nothing close to Flex. I've watched every minute of every game and we have yet to run a flex cut let alone the flex offense.

I'm sick and tired of everyone wanting offenses that get everyone involved. THIS IS NOT CHURCH BALL!! We need to get our best players involved and in positions to score. I don't care if the scoring is balanced, I care that we have the best chance to win. I thought we played our best game last night and to me that's means we're improving which is good enough for me at this point of the season.

baller1, I think I said we're attempting to run the flex, but aren't doing it right:

The "flex" is a continuity (or pattern) man-to-man offense where all five players are interchangeable. It involves constant reversal of the ball from one side of the court to the other. It can also be described as a structured form of "motion offense". And, with patient ball movement and good screening, it can keep a defense on its toes for the entire 35-second shot clock.

Whether out of the fast break or a half-court entry pass, the initial pattern, or basic spots on the court at team wants to fill in the "flex offense", are the two elbows, the two corners and the ball side block (or low post). As the ball is passed from the point guard (1) at the elbow to the power forward (4) at the opposite elbow, we back screen the cutter (3) out of the ball side corner and look for the pass inside for the lay up. Note that the small forward (cutter) makes his cut to the baseline side of the screen.

So, you're right! We can't even run a flex cut the proper way! Which explains my frustration!

 

[BengalLove]

ISUsuperfan: You are right we need to get behind the team but do not assume WE do not know anyting. I have been a sucessful coach at the D-1 and D-2 level and now I am running my own sucessful business. So I feel I know how basketbal is supposed tobe played. Everyone talks about JUCO titles! Winning in Juco is great , but I have never seen or met a great Juco coach, it is glorified AAU ball. Juco coaches need to recruit athletes and they will win some games on that level. JUCO hall of fame is great as well.

Once again everyone is OK with being a few points away from winning. People seem to think that we have improved in every game, the coaching strategy has digressed. Coach OB seems to be over coaching with the subbing patterns (which I agree may not cost ISU games, but it does not help!), and under coaching in a few other aspects that we are all talking about.
Bengalcub: I think you are right, ISU will be more of a defensive team during the season, but that does not mean they cannot be a proficient offensive team. Once that happens I feel all of us on the message board will be much happier.
I am looking forward to the next game.
Go ISU!

 

[bengalcub]

Love...I can appreciate your knowledge of the game and I really appreciate the way that you make your argument.

O'Brien has stated that he is subbing quite a bit, because he wants to find out what he has by conference and limit his rotation to 10 players. He cannot find those combos in practice--he needs to see them in the game as well. O'Brien has also stated that he made some poor decisions with regards to coaching the game last night. He said that he let his own pride get in the way by staying in the press and zone as long as he did. I think that shows signs of a coach that is trying to adapt and a coach that can admit that some things need to change.

I will concede that coaching at the JC-level is not the highest level of collegiate coaching. But, I also give respect to the fact that he won three national titles. The level does not matter to me--high school, JUCO or as an AAU coach. I simply believe that good coaches exist at all levels, just as I believe that there are good coaches that have left the game to start and run their own successful business. But, I also believe that national championships are tough to win and admirable no matter the level.

Finally, I feel that he has brought a defensive philosophy to the team that is difficult for most opponents to solve. Not too bad for a former JC coach that has taken his first two teams to the BSC Tournament, improved his seeding both years and has a .500 conference winning percentage in his first two seasons. Who was the last ISU coach to do that?

 

[Paul Grimm]

Suffice to say that we are all frustrated and wish that we were 4-0 right now.

But there is a lot of "circling of the wagons" going on when it comes to criticizing the coaching staff.

I agree that O'Brien is better than we have had here at Idaho State in the past - for that we should be grateful.

But with the talent on this year's team, why shouldn't fans be expecting more? MUCH MORE?

I for one found Spearmint Rhino's post on the virtues of the motion offense a good read.

If the current staff incorporated even 50% of the suggestions Rhino makes, we'd be a much more exciting team to watch!

Just my two cents!

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[protege]

rhino, love the avatar!!! and your thoughts on motion offense are good/valid points.

cub, et al; dissent is OK, differing opinions are OK, no need to attack the person with a different opinion, after all we know what they say about "opinions" in addition there are several on this board (where is RR) that have a lot of basketball insight, from playing at this level and beyond to coaching, I love reading the posts that point out things I didn't see or hadn't thought, that's just me.

I have NO problem with the staff personally and I don't pretend to suggest I have all the answers, my beef is philosophical, not right or wrong, I simply believe based on years of playing and being around high quality coaches, (and there are much more experienced people on this board than me) that you need a system, its why John Wooden invented his - yet he had the greatest players at the time.

its why every good program continues to win even when their best players are out.

I want to see the best players on the floor, JUST PUT THEM in situations to EXCEL! I am disappointed we haven't won the the last 3, as is everyone, I just have never believed you find your players during the OOC, we should know them and run a system that has them in position to succeed, the substitution patterns, have me baffled, and in some cases you see it on the players, several players including the returning starters have looked confused, angry and even hurt when they are taken out, they will be fine, but I feel bad for them, clearly something is a miss and I believe it has EVERYONE confused!

that's it, a system provides consistency, you know what your going to get in terms of both offense and defense regardless of what players are on the floor, if Row or Busma GOD FORBID got hurt, OH WE ARE DEEP! but the players who would replace them CANNOT play at their level, that's why I BELIEVE we need a system that is constantly moving, making players out of everyone, keeping the defense HONEST!

as I said earlier, I believe we had more balance, we will get better, I still believe by adding a few wrinkles to the offense we will get EVEN BETTER! and my guess is WE WILL see them SOON

I am not badmouthing our coach or our players I think they are PLAYING their ASSES off, I simply do not believe they are being put in spots where we can get the most out of them and in some cases, that doesn't help team morale, just my observations, so for the sake of a discussion or debate, we could tone it down a bit

just my opinion, which doesn't mean squat

 

[bengalcub]

Let me clarify...I see this quite a bit--the whole stop attacking me because my opinion differs from yours.

You see--differing opinions is fine with me.

I don't have a problem with anyone until I perceive that someone is just plain being a malcontent, constantly griping about coaches and systems, attacking a coach and the staff, promoting a friend or family member for playing time, etc.

Your opinions are fine, but you already drilled me personally on a prior thread with this question. Have you ever played or coached at this level? When I said no, you replied...I thought so. The first time I recall seeing much of you, it was attacking the SID for getting on this board.

Personally, I have been on this board a long time. I see so many people come on here and post such negative things. One post here, one post there and then they are gone. A person like RollingRock for example. I thought he had some great contributions--but he was simply pimping Kal Bay. You see, I read and responded to the post that he put on here. He totally trashed O'Brien and Baldwin--then deleted his final post and hid behind the fact that he had even said such BS. It was a post that survived all but five minutes--but a few people got to take a peek. In the end, he left--claiming that he was a victim of having an opinion.

I just get upset about the posting of offensive sets and plays on a continuous basis. Cutting and pasting step by step in order the way that things should be done. Copying a first half box score and saying that this is what a team needs to do. It seems condescending to me, that is all.

This most recent posts that you wrote--it helps me understand where you are coming from and I can appreciate what you are getting at. It is well thought out and and I find it to be a good contribution based on how you feel. It makes more sense and holds more weight with me (and maybe only me) than a top 10 list of negativity or a diagram of how a play should be run.

So, I will commit to you that I will not attack you in my own little way--if you will practice what you preach. Finally, I disagree with you on one final point and then I will try to move on--your opinion can and does matter if you mean well by it.

Finally, my apologies if I have misread your intentions.

 

[protege]

cub, thanks

I wont go back and forth on this with you, my concern regarding the SID was he should not be expressing his opinion or bantering back and forth with posters, the way everyone "circled the wagons" over frankly little or nothing, was disturbing.

the MORE folks who are encouraged to participate in a debate or discussion on this site the better for us all and for the business of this board, if you have 4-5 guys who think they are the "den police" just cutting the nuts off of posters because you don't think their posts have merit for whatever reason most will not return, thats not good for anyone, who cares "why" people post.

BTW I didnt see you say squat to baller1 when he said bay sux and posters that like him are idiots, I dont have a position to take there but it was in very poor taste

last for me here on this subject, thanks for the comments, enjoy the holiday!

Cant wait for Saturday!

 

[bengalcub]

For the record I did respond to Baller by saying:

"...Bay, Caspari and Baldwin will all come into there own."

Baller didn't keep hashing and ripping on this guy over and over or my comments would have been more critical. I want you to know that I have no problem with Kal Bay, I think he is a vital part of this team as are all members...Baldwin included. I have been disappointed by his lack of minutes.

As for circling the wagons--the circling happens for a reason. Were you at all judging who should post or not post?

Finally, castration only happens by the 'board police' when it is determined that the nut or nuts can't be saved. Your balls are only bruised--I and others have every confidence that they can be saved. Plus the 'board police' by my count actually numbers closer to 15-20--and lob the balls off as a last resort. Posters that jump ship--never had the balls to stay or their nuts just never dropped. Very few Trolls--have two balls.

Okay--enough on balls...I can love you really I can.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[weberwildcat1]

I can't believe the Bengals lost 3 straight overtime games! Looks like some of the fans are too pleased, should I look at this as a good thing? I know its hard for teams to win @ Hawaii, Long Beach is good this year, I assume Boise is also pretty good.

Interesting that Weber and ISU went to OT with Long Beach. BYU only beat em by 10 in Provo and was even down 7 at half time.

Beat BYU!!!!
Beat Utah St!! (they destroyed Weber)