Then versus Now

[coastal bengal]

Wondering about the trajectory of the men's program comparing the state of things in 2017 with the glory year of 1977. I realize a straight year to year comparison wouldn't be fair.So,lets take the tenure of the two coaches at the helm at the time.Jim Killingsworth ,coach from 1971-1977, had a W-L record of 109-54.Bll Evans, head coach from 2012 to the present, has a record of 44-97. What do these overall records tell us?

Is it just a matter of Killngsworth being a better coach? Something tells me that s too simplistic.
Maybe it's related to the quality of athletes in the programs.(Was Ed Thompson,/Steve Hayes better than Ethan Telfar/Novak Topalovic)? Could it be a question of facilities? Doubtful because both squads played in the same locations.

i don't claim to know the answers to these questions. Maybe it's too many apples and oranges. Just wish that this years' Bengals looked more like the team from 1977.Interested in what others (particularly "Skippy ") has to say about these matters.

 

[Skippy]

Wondering about the trajectory of the men's program comparing the state of things in 2017 with the glory year of 1977. I realize a straight year to year comparison wouldn't be fair.So,lets take the tenure of the two coaches at the helm at the time.Jim Killingsworth ,coach from 1971-1977, had a W-L record of 109-54.Bll Evans, head coach from 2012 to the present, has a record of 44-97. What do these overall records tell us?

Is it just a matter of Killngsworth being a better coach? Something tells me that s too simplistic.
Maybe it's related to the quality of athletes in the programs.(Was Ed Thompson,/Steve Hayes better than Ethan Telfar/Novak Topalovic)? Could it be a question of facilities? Doubtful because both squads played in the same locations.

i don't claim to know the answers to these questions. Maybe it's too many apples and oranges. Just wish that this years' Bengals looked more like the team from 1977.Interested in what others (particularly "Skippy ") has to say about these matters.

I think Bill Evans gave us a very good insight in the differences when he spoke to the 1977 team reunion. He said only two current Bengals visited campus in Pocatello before they signed here. That says to me that very few of the current Bengals had any other Division 1 options. Clearly Idaho State is not fishing in the same pond as most other D-1 schools. Why is that? Here are my theories:
--Pocatello, rightly or wrongly, is seen as a backwater place with few attractions for young people. The Eastern Idaho culture: rural, white, conservative -- is going to appeal to a limited number of kids. Pocatello is also a hard place to get to, and that impacts kids who want their families to be able to see them play.
--Lack of historic success. The Bengals haven't been to the NCAA tournament for 30 years. They haven't as much as shared a conference championship since 1993. If you are an athlete who is offered by Idaho State and most any other D-1 school, chances are that other D-1 school has a better history of success.
--You can't keep 'em home anymore. Steve Hayes, the star of that 1977 team from Aberdeen, Idaho would never consider Idaho State these days. He would have been widely exposed on a traveling AAU team and would have offers from Mountain West and WCC teams at least and probably PAC12 schools. ISU couldn't get in the door of such a player these days. The Bengals see this phenomenon with local kids like Stef Gonzales and Malek Harwell, two kids who could have been decent Big Sky quality guards but were "over-exposed" in high school and now are bit players at St. Mary's and Boise State, respectively.
--Ironic that you mention that the players are still using the same facilities-- 40 years later. In 1977 the Dome was one of the finest facilities in the West. It was selected to host first-round NCAA tournament games. Now you couldn't bribe an NCAA official into hosting NCAA games at Holt. It's old, dark and cold, and mostly empty now when ISU plays. The atmosphere at Reed is better, but try showing a recruit a 70-year old facility that looks like a quaint high school gym and convince them this is a better place to play than most other D-1 facilities.
--The numbers game has changed dramatically. In 1977, ISU was one of 180 D-1 schools in the nation. The Big Sky had one of just 32 NCAA tournament berths in the nation. You could finish the regular season with three losses in the PAC 10 and still not get in the NCAA tournament (as USC did one year) but the Big Sky champion was going to get in. Now there are 350 D-1 teams playing for 68 berths, and the Big Sky is still only getting one of those. The Big Sky ranks 29th out of 32 D-1 conferences, and ISU is at the bottom of that conference. That, my friends, is a tough sell.
So, we can all debate how good a coach Bill Evans is and I certainly do not offer myself up as any kind of expert on that topic. But I will submit that Idaho State is one of the toughest D-1 jobs in America and recruiting to Pocatello is one of the hardest aspects of that job.

 

[bhumble]

Well said :thumb: :thumb:

 

[votb]

How lucky am I to be able to work with a guy like Skippy? Very few others have the insight he has or the ability to express it the way he does. All of us can learn a lot from him. By the way, we do need to get this board going again.

 

[spudbowl]

Coastal Bengal asked, "Was Ed Thompson,/Steve Hayes better than Ethan Telfar/Novak Topalovic?"

Steve Hayes played several years in the NBA, Ed Thompson was drafted. Jeff Cook played many years in the NBA, Greg Griffen played one year in the NBA.

I basically agree with Skippy. In 1977, the Minidome was one of the most popular arenas in the West. I believe that there were 3 NCAA tournaments held in the dome in the 1970s (ISU played in two of them). Today, Thompson, Cook, Griffin, and Hayes would all had offers elsewhere (Hayes would have developed sooner since today high school kids train and develop more quickly). Even 20 years ago, the Big Sky was a true mid-major conference, usually ranking about 14-15 among conferences. Today, it is a bottom dwelling conference as Skippy points out. I also think that ESPN and now satellite TV has changed the fanbase. I know many basketball fans in Pocatello who would rather stay at home and watch a national team (Duke, North Carolina, Gonzaga, etc.) instead of their home town team, ISU. Today, national rank and all of that is important, in the 1970s, basketball was more of a regional sport. ISU was one of the best DI programs in the West, that is what mattered most and they proved that in 1977 (though Louisville was an at large team in the West in 1977, the West regional was truly a tournament to see who was the best team in the West).

With that all said, I believe SI asked in 1977 (right before the NCAA tournament started), "Does Idaho State offer athletic scholarships and if so, why would anyone accept one." It probably was not easy to recruit to Pocatello in the 1970s either but I agree that it was easier than today. SI, in 1977, was also not happy that ISU and the Big Sky received an automatic berth to the tournament.

The Big Sky should try and develop a non-conference schedule of home and away games with Cal State schools. Rebuilding a competitive non-conference schedule against the likes of Cal State Fullerton, Long Beach, Bakersfield, Northridge, etc. would be an improvement over having to bring in teams like Bristol University and then playing money games on the road. Of course, it takes time and money to travel to Big Sky schools so maybe the Cal State schools have no incentive to play the Big Sky in the non-conference season. I still enjoy Big Sky men's basketball (though I prefer the women's game more these days) and I hope that the conference and ISU can find a way to become more regionally competitive again.

 

[Skippy]

Coastal Bengal asked, "Was Ed Thompson,/Steve Hayes better than Ethan Telfar/Novak Topalovic?"

Steve Hayes played several years in the NBA, Ed Thompson was drafted. Jeff Cook played many years in the NBA, Greg Griffen played one year in the NBA.

I basically agree with Skippy. In 1977, the Minidome was one of the most popular arenas in the West. I believe that there were 3 NCAA tournaments held in the dome in the 1970s (ISU played in two of them). Today, Thompson, Cook, Griffin, and Hayes would all had offers elsewhere (Hayes would have developed sooner since today high school kids train and develop more quickly). Even 20 years ago, the Big Sky was a true mid-major conference, usually ranking about 14-15 among conferences. Today, it is a bottom dwelling conference as Skippy points out. I also think that ESPN and now satellite TV has changed the fanbase. I know many basketball fans in Pocatello who would rather stay at home and watch a national team (Duke, North Carolina, Gonzaga, etc.) instead of their home town team, ISU. Today, national rank and all of that is important, in the 1970s, basketball was more of a regional sport. ISU was one of the best DI programs in the West, that is what mattered most and they proved that in 1977 (though Louisville was an at large team in the West in 1977, the West regional was truly a tournament to see who was the best team in the West).

With that all said, I believe SI asked in 1977 (right before the NCAA tournament started), "Does Idaho State offer athletic scholarships and if so, why would anyone accept one." It probably was not easy to recruit to Pocatello in the 1970s either but I agree that it was easier than today. SI, in 1977, was also not happy that ISU and the Big Sky received an automatic berth to the tournament.

The Big Sky should try and develop a non-conference schedule of home and away games with Cal State schools. Rebuilding a competitive non-conference schedule against the likes of Cal State Fullerton, Long Beach, Bakersfield, Northridge, etc. would be an improvement over having to bring in teams like Bristol University and then playing money games on the road. Of course, it takes time and money to travel to Big Sky schools so maybe the Cal State schools have no incentive to play the Big Sky in the non-conference season. I still enjoy Big Sky men's basketball (though I prefer the women's game more these days) and I hope that the conference and ISU can find a way to become more regionally competitive again.

I agree with you on most points Spudbowl. I hope the new commissioner will put a lot of thought and effort into rebuilding the league's basketball profile.

 

[notabengalalum]

First, great write up by Skippy. :thumb:

Its interesting to see the recurring theme on recruiting to Pocatello. No, it's not a vibrant town with lots of attractions for college age people. However, has anyone ever been to Cheney, WA or Ogden, UT? Sure Cheney is fairly close to Spokane but it's a dump as far as the town itself is concerned. On the other hand, Ogden rates as a dump of a city in many aspects. The WSU campus is not overly attractive - looks like a combination memorial park and 1960's architecture exhibition. Their basketball facilities may be better but the football stadium is high school. With the exception of the red turf, EWU's football stadium is another high school facility. Yet, these schools seem to be far more successful that ISU in basketball and certainly football.

Last time I checked, our Women's Basketball program recruits to the same city and the same facilities. Their successes provide an interesting contrast to the performances of their male counterparts over the years especially with Evans and Joe O'Brien (the clipboard buster).

What ISU sees in its basketball future with Bill Evans, beats me. He should get a complacency award. What the men's program needs, IMHO, is a young coach with energy and an eye to the future not one with his vision set on retirement. Bill might be a nice guy, but as a head coach for the future of this program, why?

Need money for facility improvements? One good place to start is by not placing somebody's ass-clown buddy on paid administrative leave at $200K+ per annum. And, that's one we know about. How about it, Art?

Time to selectively drain the swamp at ISU, perhaps.

And one more final thought: if you want to improve interest in Big Sky Basketball, don't hold the conference tournament in Reno. Watch the games from there and look for the crowd, the noise, the spirit, and the local interest. You won't find much if any. The location is awful - too far from almost all of the conference schools. It's embarassing to see the stands empty with as many people as you'd see at an open gym. I hope somebody is getting their pockets padded with that decision.

 

[Skippy]

First, great write up by Skippy. :thumb:

Its interesting to see the recurring theme on recruiting to Pocatello. No, it's not a vibrant town with lots of attractions for college age people. However, has anyone ever been to Cheney, WA or Ogden, UT? Sure Cheney is fairly close to Spokane but it's a dump as far as the town itself is concerned. On the other hand, Ogden rates as a dump of a city in many aspects. The WSU campus is not overly attractive - looks like a combination memorial park and 1960's architecture exhibition. Their basketball facilities may be better but the football stadium is high school. With the exception of the red turf, EWU's football stadium is another high school facility. Yet, these schools seem to be far more successful that ISU in basketball and certainly football.

Last time I checked, our Women's Basketball program recruits to the same city and the same facilities. Their successes provide an interesting contrast to the performances of their male counterparts over the years especially with Evans and Joe O'Brien (the clipboard buster).

What ISU sees in its basketball future with Bill Evans, beats me. He should get a complacency award. What the men's program needs, IMHO, is a young coach with energy and an eye to the future not one with his vision set on retirement. Bill might be a nice guy, but as a head coach for the future of this program, why?

Need money for facility improvements? One good place to start is by not placing somebody's ass-clown buddy on paid administrative leave at $200K+ per annum. And, that's one we know about. How about it, Art?

Time to selectively drain the swamp at ISU, perhaps.

And one more final thought: if you want to improve interest in Big Sky Basketball, don't hold the conference tournament in Reno. Watch the games from there and look for the crowd, the noise, the spirit, and the local interest. You won't find much if any. The location is awful - too far from almost all of the conference schools. It's embarassing to see the stands empty with as many people as you'd see at an open gym. I hope somebody is getting their pockets padded with that decision.

I'm glad to see some interest regenerated on this board. I don't agree with all your points, notabengal, but I appreciate your chiming in. It's good to see a dialogue underway, and that there are still people who care enough to comment.

 

[notabengalalum]

Skippy wrote: "I'm glad to see some interest regenerated on this board. I don't agree with all your points, notabengal, but I appreciate your chiming in. It's good to see a dialogue underway, and that there are still people who care enough to comment."

There's nothing I'd like to see more than a regeneration of the ISU men's b-ball program. It's long overdue. With the right makeup and marketing it has potential to be a great local product with a reasonable price tag for the fans. Ditto for football but that's another story for another day. Care enough to put the right pieces into the right places and good things are possible.

 

[Skippy]

Just gotta win the lottery and get that arena built.

 

[bill_idaflls]

With ISU's loss as a 10 Seed at the Big Sky Tournament, and SUU's win as an 11 Seed, we have officially finished last in the Conference. What's next?

 

[WILDCAT]

First, great write up by Skippy. :thumb:

Its interesting to see the recurring theme on recruiting to Pocatello. No, it's not a vibrant town with lots of attractions for college age people. However, has anyone ever been to Cheney, WA or Ogden, UT? Sure Cheney is fairly close to Spokane but it's a dump as far as the town itself is concerned. On the other hand, Ogden rates as a dump of a city in many aspects. The WSU campus is not overly attractive - looks like a combination memorial park and 1960's architecture exhibition. Their basketball facilities may be better but the football stadium is high school. With the exception of the red turf, EWU's football stadium is another high school facility. Yet, these schools seem to be far more successful that ISU in basketball and certainly football.

Last time I checked, our Women's Basketball program recruits to the same city and the same facilities. Their successes provide an interesting contrast to the performances of their male counterparts over the years especially with Evans and Joe O'Brien (the clipboard buster).

What ISU sees in its basketball future with Bill Evans, beats me. He should get a complacency award. What the men's program needs, IMHO, is a young coach with energy and an eye to the future not one with his vision set on retirement. Bill might be a nice guy, but as a head coach for the future of this program, why?

Need money for facility improvements? One good place to start is by not placing somebody's ass-clown buddy on paid administrative leave at $200K+ per annum. And, that's one we know about. How about it, Art?

Time to selectively drain the swamp at ISU, perhaps.

And one more final thought: if you want to improve interest in Big Sky Basketball, don't hold the conference tournament in Reno. Watch the games from there and look for the crowd, the noise, the spirit, and the local interest. You won't find much if any. The location is awful - too far from almost all of the conference schools. It's embarassing to see the stands empty with as many people as you'd see at an open gym. I hope somebody is getting their pockets padded with that decision.

Our football stadium might be high school, but it's larger and more attractive than Idaho State's

Stewart Stadium -17,500
Holt Arena- 12,000

Stewart Stadium has also been voted as one of the best football facilities in the Big Sky by several online sites including Hero sports. In my opinion based on atmosphere and views it's the third best in the conference.

 

[boisebengal]

Hey Skippy, if you win the lottery then you may wish to keep some of it for yourself rather than give it all to ISU! They say if you invest a million then you'll have interest income of about $60,000 a year. But probably a better investment would be property rentals, if you have it paid for.