First off, should we even talk about the girls team or have you already given up that fight before it started, since results don't lie? There have been some good female athletes, coincidently those athletes were transfers going to EWU for grad school, meaning NOT RECRUITED BY ZELLER. He got lucky to get some girls that already had talent and ran fast. Remind you of some other people on his resume? Once Chris Zeller took over the very good program from Coach Hilton with record breaking talent and big sky qualifiers across the board with men and women things went downhill.
Who else was good in those first years of Chris Zeller? Timeus and Suver and Limpf broke records, Smyth on similar pace, Helm and Justus had potential, the Only runner that Chris Zeller recruited his first year wasn't even the third fastest girl on the team. He had a 5k PR of 17:14 in college! (I'm not trying to put down any individual athletes performances, i'm trying to put down the coaches performance). What happened to every single athlete that was recruited by Coach Hilton? Suver transferred, Timeus quit early, Smyth transferred, Helm and Justus quit. On the women's side everyone graduated except Bridgmon who also transferred. Paul Limpf stayed and ran pretty well and does deserve props, Coach Hilton deserves major props for RECRUITING him.
Let's just stick to the guys now since i believe there is zero debate about the girls, and maybe you have a point here and there about the guys.
So what happens next? Zeller recruited Ebding, Vaux, then Barton, King and Sorenson. So from 2007 to now, Zeller lost over five guys and recruited five decent guys. Average of one good recruit a year? REALLY? Not as good as before (proof is in the results this isn't an argument) but solid group of guys for big sky, i'll say that. Barton and King redshirted almost a whole year, and now are transferring and not even finishing with what seems to be the common denominator (Chris Zeller). So at EWU under Zeller you are allowed to redshirt then transfer or quit? Again, i'm not putting down these guys or girls, it is not their fault! I'm sure they all work as hard as they can under the circumstances, but I have just gotten sick of watching this team crumble more and more and Zeller still has his job, and I feel sooo bad for all these athletes not being set up for future success.
Should we address the nearly world record breaking times when Zeller put together the XC conference championships in Cheney? 21:28 8k? Averaging 4:19/mile? I can understand being +/- 50meters off, but running a 7k instead of 8k? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME? Kyle King can run 13:50 in XC windy, cold conditions and keep running another 3k in 8:18? I'm pretty sure there is zero debate that the course was Ridiculously short, and i'm pretty sure we can't argue who is to blame for this can we?
http://www.goeags.com/sports/c-xc/2010-11/files/10xcBigSkyResultsMen.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also to address the "stat man", Let's look at Hilton recruited athletes (6-7) years ago vs. Zeller athletes. Remember we are talking about who recruited these runners, not about who inherited them, so not times from 2004 vs 5 years of times from Zeller, which as a team Hilton still wins.
Maybe that four guys flirting with 8 in the 3k was stretching it, flirting with 8:07 is more correct for you?
3000m-
Timeus(8:08), Smyth(8:14), Suver(8:07) and Limpf(8:11) (4 guys) all recruits of the old coach.
So Kyle King (8:13) is the only one that can mix it up with that, and HE IS TRANSFERRING! (aka leaving the coach)
1500?
Fuller (3:46), Suver (3:48), Smyth (3:51), Helm (3:51), Timeus, (3:52), Kellog (3:52), Conrick (3:55), Hewitt (sub 4) the list goes on but i don't feel like digging deeper.
5k?
Limpf(14:09), Timeus
19), Suver
24), Smyth
32), Fuller
38), and King
35) who I count against Coach Zeller yet again since...... should i even say it? He is leaving.
So who does Zeller have to compete with these guys? Ebding and Vaux may be sneaking into the backfield, but I am hesitant to count them fully as Zeller athletes because the work ethic of them may have been developed from former Hilton athletes. But I understand that is up for debate and you can deny that which is fine.
I appreciate you acknowledging these past couple rocky years, and i'd give leeway to the coach like you are doing if it wasn't his 5th year coaching. Now there are no more excuses. As for injuries, and better team next year, tell me at what year do you give up future hope? ten years? Someone has to do something about the coach who is in control of other runners lives and futures. Go work in some other profession where you don't have young student-athletes futures in the palm of your hand!
So stat man, you said if we wan't specifics to keep talking? Please give me those specific future results you are predicting? Or debate my past results with guys that consistently put up good times and actually are healthy once big sky's comes around. I didn't feel like doing it, but if you want to rebuttle, why don't you look at the girls results? Which girls that weren't transfers would have even made it in the top 7 on Hiltons team? Dye? Maybe the 7-8 runner. Anyone else?
I like your optimism but soon you will see reality, who quits, transfers, doesn't show up next year, and you will realize you are waiting another five years to see even worse results. Wait until you are an alumni like us and are angry about what has happened to this program. It can be easy to deny reality, but in this case the grass is greener on the other side.