APR Penalties coming Wednesday.

[bengalcub]

For some reason--I am not shocked...

From the Bengal Blog:

...Now, the reason all of this is coming out is to kind of put in layman’s terms the APR, because on Wednesday at noon or so, the NCAA will release their APR penalties, and while ISU was given high marks from the NCAA and given public recognition for having a perfect score in women’s cross country, ISU is going to get dinged pretty good in football.

By pretty good, what I mean is losing scholarships, counters, and practice time. ISU will lose two counters, meaning on national signing day, you can only get 23 kids instead of 25, and ISU will lose 6.3 scholarships (basically the maximum penalty, which is 10% of a 63 scholarships that ISU can give out). The practice time is four hours, meaning the team can only have 16 hours of countable time together, and they must take two days off a week, not one. That penalty is probably the one that hurts early in the season when school is in session, as during the actual season the team usually late in the season had Sunday and Monday off, so that will start earlier.

Rest of the story: http://isubengalblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/playing-apr-game.html

 

[bengalcub]

Some comments from me.

Good article in attempting to find positives in so many negatives. I have not seen the other penalties of other BSC members--but I think this is the most significant scholarship reduction that any conference member has ever had.

The sad thing--ISU was aware of this problem years ago. Until very recently--this problem was ignored--or at least not properly addressed when the problem was so obvious. I mean, my hell--I have been chiming about it for damn near two years.

Part of the Zamberlin extension made reference to improvements in APR. Where and what were those improvements?

Good luck trying to build a program from the cellar of the Big Sky Conference with reduced scholarships and reduced practice time. Two more years of a Zamberlin contract--and when will ISU supporters get some good news?

This makes me want to puke.

 

[biobengal]

Shrug... I've lost my passion.

 

[bengalcub]

Shrug... I've lost my passion.

Understandable, me too.

 

[spartan]

damn... with those penalties we'll be lucky to win 1 game a year

a meaningless 'penalty' for a team that produces at the level the bengals have for the past few years...

from a different perspective it might even be a little bit of motivation - won't hurt might even help

 

[bengalcub]

damn... with those penalties we'll be lucky to win 1 game a year

a meaningless 'penalty' for a team that produces at the level the bengals have for the past few years...

from a different perspective it might even be a little bit of motivation - won't hurt might even help

It may be meaningless as far as wins go for this year--I will grant you that.

However, building a program with any stability--just became way more difficult. In some ways ISU lost its first two recruiting classes--finally had two that stayed together...and in essence they will lose another class to penalties. Look for lack of depth and a boatload of JC transfers to fill the voids. That or else you start giving scholarships to walk-ons to earn some APR points back--and then you cannot compete on the field. From start to finish--this will cost ISU ten years--beginning with year one of the Zamberlin era. First three years--this year--the next two--and three to four more to build a foundation of youth. Not to mention the real possibility of a coaching change after next season due to lack of progress in the win column. APR and lack of funding may combine to deal the death blow to ISU football as we know it.

 

[ISUDude]

And the zam hole just got bigger. At some point you'd have to think we've hit rock bottom, but ol johnny keeps implementing his program and keeps astounding everyone. So much for academics being a good reason for the rehire! Another indication that rehiring these bozos was not just bad, but terrible. And an expensive mistake at that. Watch out for more players leaving... Those that have years, why would you want to stay and keep sinking? Especially for a coach that just projects his problems on everyone else. Its not his fault, its never his fault. He's done a perfect job of things!

 

[bengalcub]

But after examining a list of his 2007 and 2008 recruits, Zamberlin concluded that he is satisfied with how many players - and which players - he has retained. Just as importantly, Zamberlin pointed out that player departures so far haven't cost Idaho State APR sanctions, unlike at four other Big Sky schools.

"I'm happy with the kids' retention that we've had," Zamberlin said. "As I look at those lists (of recruits), I feel pretty good about that."

--Idaho State Journal Article Oct 2009

 

[isusid]

I don't want to get into what the other schools got as far as penalties and such, but we are one of five Big Sky schools to get a scholarship reduction (and I just fixed this on the blog...it was 3.84, not 6.3 ...6.3 was the initial figure I got, but 3.84 is on the official NCAA site), but I just ran some numbers...

There are five Big Sky schools getting hit with penalties in football, including one way bigger than ours, and one close to it. One other school is also hit with the practice time as well ... and someone said it before that they had been harping on this for two years ... we've seen it as well, which is why the implementation of the plan started last year, after we could get the backing we needed on it, because it's a massive cultural shift in how you go about your business as a coach.

So some more numbers, and you will clearly see why I think the AR system is tremendously flawed...by my count, 136 Division I teams are getting some sort of penalty or notice tomorrow...not 136 schools, 136 teams, if ISUDude State had football and women's soccer get penalties, that's two of the 136. Anyways, of the 136 teams, wanna fathom a guess how many of those are from BSC leagues? Eight. Just eight....where the money is. This is my breakdown....

Overall teams
Non-BCS: 128
BCS: 8

Football
Non-BCS: 25
BCS: 1

Men's Basketball
Non-BCS: 29
BCS: 2

Baseball
Non-BCS: 16
BCS: 0

All Other sports:
Non-BCS: 58
BCS: 5 (including unbelievably a women's rowing team.

Not validating it or anything, as I agree it stinks to have to deal with penalties, but it's funny in a way...as a department, we've had two of the top three GPAs over the last 12 years this year over the two semesters, and football's GPA last semester as a team overall was a 2.84, which is great considering the number of guys on the team. APR favors the programs with the money to allocate the needed resources, and when that list comes out tomorrow and folks see the list, there's a definite pattern to the schools on it. However, it's the world we live in, so ISU athletics has to adjust, and we are.

Frank

 

[Bengal Roar]

3.84 is better than 6.3 but zero is better then 3.84. I guess it is what it is. It seems like we take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I don't care if other teams have the same out come or if we are comparing ourselves to other bsc teams. We should be better than that. I hope we learn from this.

Now talking about the corruption in the NCAA/BCS (imo). Frank, you talked about the ones with all the money? Well check this (BS) out..........http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-expansion060610

 

[bengalcub]

The whole problem I have with this is the position that everyone took minimizing the problem. When it was first brought up we were told that Zamberlin was being penalized for issues caused by Lewis. The APR issue at ISU is not two years old. To get to this point you have to have multiple years of mismanagement. If the problems were addressed during the end of the Lewis tenure--maybe some of the issues would not exist now.

What I see is a president and athletic department that was only ready to step up to the plate--when it was obvious that penalties were a given. I have read on here, I have read in the Journal and I have heard on the coaches show that things were moving in the right direction. At the very least--it was implied that Idaho State had taken the steps needed to correct the problem. To me--it looks like things started getting fixed last fall. This is way too late to react to a problem that has to have been apparent for the last four to five years.

Back to back one win seasons and NCAA penalties do not jive with me. Constant excuses and the round and round blame game and fluff just don't cut it. The only reason ISU is admitting the lack of vision and discipline in the program is because it cannot be denied and hidden any longer. This isn't a a John Zamberlin problem only, this is an ISU athletic department problem and the school president shares a good share of the blame as well. Idaho State simply chose to react late--period.

People are paid and trusted to keep things like this from happening. If ISU owned this problem 100% I would respect folks quite a bit more. However, all we hear is how complex this is--Zamberlin is learning--and FIXING the problem started in the fall of 2009. This is a four year rolling score--four year. Cultural shifts for a coach should begin the moment you sign a contract to be a D-1 head coach and the implementation of this culture and accountability toward this culture begin at the top.

Side note--guess what team just got recognized for having the best football APR in the BSC? Northern Colorado.

 

[isusid]

Remember that all it takes is one bad year to get put on notice...you go 930, 930, 930, and 890, and guess what, you are on notice, and that one bad year is there for four years.

It comes down to the fact that whenever there is a coaching change, there is attrition, and that hurts APR. It comes down to John and the staff (and the administration and everyone else) wanting to win and taking a chance on kids, and some of those kids didn't pan out (both on the field and in the classroom) ... that hurt in APR.

Their GPA last semester was a 2.84 overall...that's awesome, but as I've stated, GPA and APR are two different things.

Bottom line, and John takes some of the blame for this in the paper, but it's more than just that despite this APR cycle being only John's first two years and Larry's last two. However, we shouldn't just look at football and go "well we suck", because 14 of the 15 sports are doing well, or showing tremendous progress. Football will eventually do the same, I'm sure of it.

Side note note...Northern Colorado's APR is adjusted because of the fact they have only two years of Division I status in that score...so the number is bumped up. Not a slam, just saying.

Frank

 

[isusid]

Oh, going back to the "people are paid to keep this from happening" ... ummmm, all we do around here is cut budgets and personnel, so while yes, NOW someone is assigned to this task, actually, there wasn't a person it really fell on, because we were short staffed. This is one of the reason's we were able to get money put into the academic side of things and get an extra person like Quinton Freeman here. I mean we had folks filling out forms and things for APR, but now we have a few more resources to work with o help us out in this regard. Meant to answer that one before....my bad.

OK, gotta fine tune the release...

Frank

 

[spartan]

if the footbal team wins 5 or 6 games no body will give a crap about apr

if the team only wins 1 or maybe 2 games - won't mean anything either

you gotta play with the hand you're dealt - all this other bs is just wind and noise

 

[Bengal Roar]

Got to give it to Cub. He has been calling this for years. Not a good thing but (hat off) to you Cub.

I think last year Cub had his private messages blown up with mad-pissed off people that more or less told him to chill out on the APR issue. Right? Sorry, did you people want to just sweep it under the rug? How can a Bengal fan/message board guy see this from so far away and you ISU people didn't see it coming or didn't want to see it coming? What in the hell are you doing up there? If you didn't have the job for someone to do then you should have made one before now. If it was a budget thing then cut somewhere else so you had the budget. This is way to important to just let it go until the last minute.

I am so sick of excuses.........I have heard them all...........I know there is a learning curve in this coaching thing but my hell it is now getting into the 4th year. Same shit................Where is the change??????????? I have been hearing about it. I have been reading about it. I don't see it! Like Cub, let me not play the blame game ALL on the coaching. The President and Adm/Ath Dept. are all in this too and should take some heat.

 

[isusid]

Ask Cub...I have answered everyone of his APR questions and let him know a long time ago that this was not only on the horizon but it was seen...again, some things like kids leaving you can't control. This is why a plan was formulated and finally put into place at the start of the year ... because know we have some backing from the folks we need it from, and people understand that maybe...just maybe, you can't keep taking away money from the department and thinking everything is going to be just fine.

Case in point...Jordan Scott. Guess what he is...an APR hit...you go 3 for 4 on him because he was injured and then because of not enough receivers in spring ball he got moved and decided that since we recruited some running backs he didn't want to stay. How do you stop that? It's not eligibilty really...it's stuff like that that kills us. Luke Butler isn't going to be the starting QB...so he transfers...lose one point. Shaquille Senegal is told to sit out of practice to raise his grades, so he leaves...lose one point (probably two for him). Parker Jolly gets a parasite in his stomach and can't play anymore ... lose one point (we are appealing that one). Evan Mozzochi isn't the starting quarterback so he leaves ... lose one point.

THAT'S the learning curve....Montana doesn't have that issue...those kids stay and don't leave. Unless it's Erik Stoll, who would be an APR loss for us because he transferred there. I'm telling you...APR is a game, and some folks and coaches and schools learned faster than others....We have had three penalties in 60 shots, meaning 57 out of 60 times, we have been above the grade and fine. The goal? get 15 out of 15 through next year...not excuses, just reality, and honestly, it is what it is, and there is a plan in place for the future, because the past cannot change, unless you are friends with Marty McFly and ol' Doc Brown.

President and Athletic Dept./Admin are taking heat by the way...you think Jeff, or Matt, or folks here get off scott free? Please....I still get crap for winning a car...

Frank

 

[votb]

I don't mind people being pissed off about this situation...but ROAR, you suggested that they should have gotten rid of somebody in athletics so they could have hired the new academic support person a long time ago. That's not an argument that I would disagree with...if there had been anyone around to unload. Have you been to the athletic department for the past two years? Do you understand how many people lost their jobs when an $800k budget deficit had to be made up in one year? There literally is ONE administrative support (secretary-type) person for the entire athletic department. There's no admin support person at the front desk in the athletic department office...there's not one for either basketball program, for football, volleyball, soccer, track, cross-country, softball, etc. The school already dumped men's golf and the coach to save money on scholarships and salary...every secretary was released, recruiting budgets were slashed, etc. Financially, support from ISU administration for athletics has been a problem for decades, and I truly believe Pres. Vailas would do more if he could, but he's got enough problems just to try to keep from laying off faculty and staff, and trying to re-organize the school in a way that will do as much as possible for the least number of dollars. By the way...if you only knew how many people at ISU are being moved around to lesser-paying jobs (regardless of how many years they've been at the school), or are "kindly" being pushed into early retirement just to keep the whole damn school's head above water...I think you'd be surprised.

The truth is, we've got a damn tough financial crisis going on in higher education...hell, in all our lives, yet some people think it should be as easy as snapping a finger to fix some problem that has been years, if not decades in the making. We've got freaking professors (so-called "educated" folk) who think this whole budget thing is a smoke-screen being pushed by ISU administrators to somehow take "power" and benefits away from them. Are you telling me a truly-educated person would believe that with the conditions that exist in the U.S. today? Just shoot me now.

The bottom line for me is this...ISU AND Athletics has made plenty of errors over the years (both sins of commission and omission). People are doing some things NOW that maybe should have been done years ago...but at least they're being done now. I've always believed the cream rises to the top...especially when the milk bucket is being sloshed around a lot. When I think of most of those kids on ISU teams who go out and bust their butts on the court, field or track, giving everything they've got...no matter what the financial situation is...to me, those people are worth their weight in gold. Sure, we have kids who come here and realize this isn't Oklahoma or USC or BYU, and they leave...for whatever reason. For those who've left for personal family situations..."good luck to you". For those who've left because maybe they didn't get the PT they or their friends thought they should...or because ISU isn't big-time enough for them...I say "good riddance". If going through what football has to go through with these penalties and all will build a stronger program...bring it on. Yes...I know...CUB was right and saw this coming...no arguments. But Athletics saw it coming, too...and finally got enough leverage to make improvements in this one specific area. Frankly, this school and the community (in general) has not given athletics the tools needed to create a successful football program. You have to go all the way back to McNeeley before Lewis to find a football coach with more than one winning season. Is it because ISU has a track record of only hiring losers? Or is it because capable coaches, in general, haven't consistently been given the tools needed to win.

If we're moving forward...even a little, I say keep leaning in that direction.

 

[bengalcub]

if the footbal team wins 5 or 6 games no body will give a crap about apr

if the team only wins 1 or maybe 2 games - won't mean anything either

you gotta play with the hand you're dealt - all this other bs is just wind and noise

No doubt, if ISU was winning games and fielding a competitive team--I could look past this and I am sure others could as well.

If this team wins one to two games this year it may not matter either. Nope. But, if you want to win down the road--you just set yourself back quite a bit. You see--this is not a hole that is easy to did out of. Now, ISU will be forced to keep kids that they need to say goodbye to. They will also be forced to scholarship more walk-ons in an effort to recoup some of the APR points. Guess what--the kids know this. This can have long term ramifications.

This is less and less about money and more and more about lack of discipline in a program. It begins with lack of accountability and excuses. I find zero pleasure in chastising Idaho State University. I have loved the Bengals my whole life and having issues with the athletic department is something that I struggle with a great deal. However, the football program is in dire straights and the last thing that they need are paper tigers in leadership.

 

[bengalcub]

Frank--I have never said that questions were not answered on this board. I am not saying that changes that are being made will not make a difference. What I am saying is that this storm has been brewing for 5-6 years and with each year that passed the problem became more and more compounded.

VOTB, I know the economy is tough--but this action could have been implemented before this recession even started. This was so avoidable.

We can talk until we are blue in the face about kids that are leaving that were out of ISU's control. Well guess what? If you recruited the right kids, retained the right kids and had kids stay in the program long enough to create depth, mature into great leaders and develop into producers on the football field...we wouldn't be having this conversation. Why? Because you can have some attrition as long as it does not become mass attrition.

So kudos to ISU for stepping up to the plate (late) and moving towards a more positive outcome. However, criticism and second guessing come with the territory.

 

[Bengal Roar]

VOTB- I never said to cut a persons job to create another one. I said "cut somewhere else". If the players need to eat tuna fish sandwiches or if they need to cut out a few folks on traveling with the team or cheaper hotels? Do we still get hotel rooms for players and staff for home games? Just throwing a few ideas out there.

Yes, it is a hard economic life for many right now including myself. When things get like this is when we roll our sleeves up and tighten our belt and make due with what we have and focus on the most important things and this APR issue is one of those most important things. But someone dropped the ball.

I guess I am tired of defending the program and "faking" to family and the community that we have a great program, and that we are in the "re-building years", give me a break and a puke bucket. I can't use the re-building year excuse anymore on anyone in the public nor on myself.

Sorry, I keep echoing Cub, but it hurts me also to rip on a program that I have given heart and soul too over so many years. When I don't get excited anymore about ISU football and when I start to look at other football teams schedules and think about going to those games instead of ISU games I think I am starting to lose the luster of Bengal ball.

VOTB and ISUSID-you guys are the heart beat and love up there and I know you give it your ALL! Thanks for always looking at the glass half full. But for me right now, I am not taking any excuses. From the APR issue to the team discipline to wins and losses. I have been giving excuses for ISU's sake for who know's how long. I have thought that way for lots of years and I am done faking it. We don't have a good football program and I will stick to my guns on that until I see improvement. And until all of us realize it then we will continue down the old stinky-keep doing what we always do trail. Go Bengals!