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[bearsradio]

Regarding my comments on "+5" and recruiting, uncfootballrules commented on the Big(?) Red and Callahan and the fans viewpoint. Trust me, I know where fans are coming from in wanting immediate improvement.

I'm a Notre Dame fan, by virtue of my mother's family. I disagreed with them firing Ty Willingham, because it was a 3-year deal and he was dealing with Bob Davie's remnants. Now 3-years into Weis' tenure, everyone is questioning why the team stinks right now. The number one reason--Ty's recruiting DID stink. Meanwhile, Ty's taking advantage of the players Neuheisel brought in.

Urban Meyer at Florida is still working with Zook's recruits, Ron Prince at K-State still has a roster made up mostly of Snyder's lackluster classes at the end of his tenure.

Ursa brings up the point that most of Dalton's recruits were "run off", but there are plenty of those players who elected to move on with their lives, instead of put in the time and effort being asked of them under Downing. Its the difference in philosophy about what it takes to be ready to play, and most of them made a choice. A good number of them are still enrolled at UNC.

Most of our woes are from young players being pressed into action without the needed weight or from players who have heart, but are not the most talented players, thus struggling in matchups. You do have to allow for a "cycle" to play out, though--five years.

I would like to see more juco recruiting for the experience, but the school's entrance requirements do pose some issues. It wasn't that long ago that Barnett was complaining about the same thing in regards to what "open admission" allowed K-State to do, versus what CU could in recruiting and signings.

 

[Ursa Major]

1) I don't think that I ever stated that anyone was "run off".
2) I'm not sure that I agree with the commitment argument either. A couple of former players that I talked to did mention Downings lack of "fire".
3) It's obvious that Downing has struggled with his "philosophy" about what it takes to be ready to play. How do I know this? We don't play.
4) I do agree with your statement about youth. I think that this will pay dividends in the long run, but I'm not too sure about waiting 5 years to see the results. As I have stated time and time again, a change in staffs does not make a player crappy. If the staff, under Downing, with two years to work can't eke out more than one win, then they need to do a little soul searching. Otherwise, they are going to be doing a little job searching.
5) I also agree with your stance on JUCO kids.

 

[bearsradio]

Ursa, you are correct in that you didn't say it in that direct term. I misread your comments regarding players that do or don't fit a system and how you disagree with that...

 

[uncfootballrules]

BR - we are both ND fans so that has made for some very long Saturdays of late. Even though Ty is a terrible recruiter, I still don't think ND should have fallen off as far as they have but that is for another board. Sidenote - I am headed back for the USC game in two weeks though.

Back to the Bears. I am a HUGE proponent of consistency in the staff. That is one of the main reasons that I think UNC was so good for so long. Even when Joe left, we still had a lot of holdovers from the old staff stay. I think this consistent philosophy pays huge dividends. That being said, I'm not sure we can give five years here. Hell, I think the Nebraska AD will be lynched before this latest contract extension he gave to Callahan is over - again I digress. I will be the first to admit that if I see any signs of improvement give the current staff more time. I want to see it badly, I hope for it, I just have not seen it. In fact, I have seen:

1. Indecisiveness from the top. Changing offensive philosophies in year 2 - even though I agreed with this what does that say for the vision of where the program is headed? It also seems that there is an inability to commit to a decision (i.e. QB)
2. Coaching overall - it seems that more than occasionally this group is thoroughly outcoached. It is pretty easy to see whether the problem is talent or coaching. I know that we have issues in both but here is what I mean. A player dropping a pass that would have been good for a 1st down = talent issue. A player catching/dropping a 5 yard pass on 3rd and 10 = coaching issue. Likewise on defense a DB who gets outjumped for a ball = player issue. Not being in position to make the play = coaching.
3. Recruiting - I still don't see any indication that the players being brought in at this point are a dramatic upgrade to what we have seen. I bring up EWU again. Last year the "word" was what a lot of talent wait til they get some experience and stop making the silly mistakes. Look at them this year. That is not even a remote mention with the bears. We don't see any of those flashes at all. I don't see the talent there - maybe there is more in the redshirt class but I haven't seen it on the field.
4. Recruiting 2 - I know a lot of high school coaches. It is well known in that community who the good recruiters are and who the bad are. Guess where we fall in that spectrum? I also know that we are offering full rides to kids who didn't even get sniffed at by so much as RMAC schools. The story I hear on the street doesn't jive with what I hear from the podium (or see in the game).
5. Toughness - this team doesn't have it. I was shocked to read your post that Dalton's kids left because it is harder to play for this staff. Having seen Dalton in action years ago I would be shocked if this was the case. He was an old school hard nose SOB and so were his teams. Full pads were the norm not the Tuesday exception. Heck on Thursdays the #1 O used to go against #1 D for 15 minutes of live goalline drills. I have not seen a Downing practice, but from reading about "walk through" scrimmages and the like I think it is apparent in the toughness (or lack thereof) on gamedays. By the way, I am the one who has said they were run off. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. This is just how I see it.
6. You are dead on about the Juco's. One of the only players showing any ability is Woods who was a Juco.

I realize there is no money to buy out a coaches contract. So I have resigned myself to the fact that there will be at least one more year of this. Personally, short of a major turnaround these last 6 games (major meaning 500 ball and evident signs of improvement), I would not vote for any more. I'll be at the game on Saturday though rooting for the bears and hoping, hoping that I see something. The schedule from here on out actually sets up well (three home games that should be winnable). If results are to be seen now is the time.

 

[gobears]

Dalton was on a downward spiral. I am honestly not sure he would have put together a much better record over the past year and a half than Downing has. And honestly I would not be any happier with a 3-13 mark than a 1-16 mark. Sure it looks good to me now, but realisticaly, I would probably be sad.

I have done all the diagnosing I can about Dowing, I guess time will tell, he will be around another year for sure, then who knows. I just hope that he either A) Turns the team around, not optimistic, but hey, it could happen. or B) when he gets canned, Hinrichs gets the boot first, so a new AD can hire a qualified coach.

In terms of getting down on the team and/or players, I try to limit my comments to on the field criticism. So when I say 'Both QBs suck' I mean both QBs have sucked in terms of on the field performance. So if any players are reading, and I know some do, that is all I mean by it, I know you all work hard, and that you guys fell the pain of loosing. As far as 'supporting the team' goes, I do, but that does not mean that I will produce a never ending stream of sunshine from my arse. I show up to games, and will chear for good things and drink for bad things, the ups and downs are part of being a fan. I come on here and bitch and moan sometimes, because as a fan it is all I can do. My bitching and moaing here doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things, if it gets you down, ignore it, if it fires you up, great. I am just a fan, so dont let anything I, or anyone else says get to you.

 

[formerplayer1]

BearsRadio,

I am a bit confused on why you would be point to Dalton and his staff for this current staff's struggles. Would it not be more productive just to say hey we are real young or some other answer. But to point the finger at a man that was the OC on the national Championship teams and the HC of a (2003) team that some would rank in the top 10 of all UNC teams is flat out stupid. Make up some other bull that at least will humor someone. On another note I dont know how you would say Daltons recruiting classes were not very strong. Two of the best players to ever come out of UNC were recruited by Dalton and his staff (Vincent Jackson and Reed Doughty). I could name many other great players that were Daltons recruits but ill try and keep this short. Many of the very good football players left to go play college ball some where else, some did just quit football all together. I dont know the reasons they left but I personally would think it would have to do with the current state of the program. There are many reasons that could have forced those players out of the program such as Coachs, AD, Family, or the fact that they arent very good right now. I have my own feelings on the Coachs and the AD that I will keep to myself but all I am saying is quit pointing the finger at the old staff. They are not there currently, alot of thier recruits are not there and they won more games thier last season there than this currents staff has won in two season.

 

[bearsradio]

BearsRadio,

I am a bit confused on why you would be point to Dalton and his staff for this current staff's struggles.

On another note I dont know how you would say Daltons recruiting classes were not very strong. Two of the best players to ever come out of UNC were recruited by Dalton and his staff (Vincent Jackson and Reed Doughty).

I have my own feelings on the Coachs and the AD that I will keep to myself but all I am saying is quit pointing the finger at the old staff. They are not there currently, alot of thier recruits are not there and they won more games thier last season there than this currents staff has won in two season.

I'm not fully pointing the finger at Dalton or his staff. I have pointed out that Dalton's recruiting was poor, and there are former assistants who have admitted as much to me. They expressed frustration that he didn't care very much about recruiting, which did hurt a bit.

Similarily, I fault Fallis for setting up the poorly executed scheme of incrementally increasing scholarships instead of working to fund them immediately. The two add up, and when factored with some potential athletes not wanting to go to a school without hope of playing a post-season game, you have a extra tough job getting players to sign on.

As for recruiting classes, look at the whole. Yes, VJ and Doughty were in the 2001 class, but after that, what players stand out?

What I am attempting to point out is that many of things that affect this program are based on issues that arose starting five years ago. That's not placing blame on anyone in particular, as multiple mistakes were made.

I've stated this before, I have respect for Dalton as a coach and person and I have respect for Downing as a coach and person. Mistakes are made every year by coaches in recruiting and preparation. Posters here have made it very clear what they percieve as mistakes by Downing, and I don't fault them a bit for making their arguments. It's about their opinion. I'm just attempting to help point up that there's a bigger picture--how the past issues in the years from when Glenn left to now affect where this program is.

If the finances aren't there, at some point that overtakes coaching strengths. If the weight training isn't there, at some point it overtakes coaching strengths. If the wrong administration is guiding things, creating negatives, at some point it overtakes coaching strengths. As someone stated earlier, everyone needs to be on the same page--from the president through the freshman equipment manager, and that wasn't happening.

One other thought, its easier to tear a program that's at the top down than it is to maintain that success.

 

[Beardown]

BearsRadio,

I am a bit confused on why you would be point to Dalton and his staff for this current staff's struggles. Would it not be more productive just to say hey we are real young or some other answer. But to point the finger at a man that was the OC on the national Championship teams and the HC of a (2003) team that some would rank in the top 10 of all UNC teams is flat out stupid. Make up some other bull that at least will humor someone. On another note I dont know how you would say Daltons recruiting classes were not very strong. Two of the best players to ever come out of UNC were recruited by Dalton and his staff (Vincent Jackson and Reed Doughty). I could name many other great players that were Daltons recruits but ill try and keep this short. Many of the very good football players left to go play college ball some where else, some did just quit football all together. I dont know the reasons they left but I personally would think it would have to do with the current state of the program. There are many reasons that could have forced those players out of the program such as Coachs, AD, Family, or the fact that they arent very good right now. I have my own feelings on the Coachs and the AD that I will keep to myself but all I am saying is quit pointing the finger at the old staff. They are not there currently, alot of thier recruits are not there and they won more games thier last season there than this currents staff has won in two season.

Meaning you don't care for them. C'mon, you can share your thoughts. We're all anonymous here!

 

[Beardown]

BR - we are both ND fans so that has made for some very long Saturdays of late. Even though Ty is a terrible recruiter, I still don't think ND should have fallen off as far as they have but that is for another board. Sidenote - I am headed back for the USC game in two weeks though.

Back to the Bears. I am a HUGE proponent of consistency in the staff. That is one of the main reasons that I think UNC was so good for so long. Even when Joe left, we still had a lot of holdovers from the old staff stay. I think this consistent philosophy pays huge dividends. That being said, I'm not sure we can give five years here. Hell, I think the Nebraska AD will be lynched before this latest contract extension he gave to Callahan is over - again I digress. I will be the first to admit that if I see any signs of improvement give the current staff more time. I want to see it badly, I hope for it, I just have not seen it. In fact, I have seen:

1. Indecisiveness from the top. Changing offensive philosophies in year 2 - even though I agreed with this what does that say for the vision of where the program is headed? It also seems that there is an inability to commit to a decision (i.e. QB)
2. Coaching overall - it seems that more than occasionally this group is thoroughly outcoached. It is pretty easy to see whether the problem is talent or coaching. I know that we have issues in both but here is what I mean. A player dropping a pass that would have been good for a 1st down = talent issue. A player catching/dropping a 5 yard pass on 3rd and 10 = coaching issue. Likewise on defense a DB who gets outjumped for a ball = player issue. Not being in position to make the play = coaching.
3. Recruiting - I still don't see any indication that the players being brought in at this point are a dramatic upgrade to what we have seen. I bring up EWU again. Last year the "word" was what a lot of talent wait til they get some experience and stop making the silly mistakes. Look at them this year. That is not even a remote mention with the bears. We don't see any of those flashes at all. I don't see the talent there - maybe there is more in the redshirt class but I haven't seen it on the field.
4. Recruiting 2 - I know a lot of high school coaches. It is well known in that community who the good recruiters are and who the bad are. Guess where we fall in that spectrum? I also know that we are offering full rides to kids who didn't even get sniffed at by so much as RMAC schools. The story I hear on the street doesn't jive with what I hear from the podium (or see in the game).
5. Toughness - this team doesn't have it. I was shocked to read your post that Dalton's kids left because it is harder to play for this staff. Having seen Dalton in action years ago I would be shocked if this was the case. He was an old school hard nose SOB and so were his teams. Full pads were the norm not the Tuesday exception. Heck on Thursdays the #1 O used to go against #1 D for 15 minutes of live goalline drills. I have not seen a Downing practice, but from reading about "walk through" scrimmages and the like I think it is apparent in the toughness (or lack thereof) on gamedays. By the way, I am the one who has said they were run off. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. This is just how I see it.
6. You are dead on about the Juco's. One of the only players showing any ability is Woods who was a Juco.

I realize there is no money to buy out a coaches contract. So I have resigned myself to the fact that there will be at least one more year of this. Personally, short of a major turnaround these last 6 games (major meaning 500 ball and evident signs of improvement), I would not vote for any more. I'll be at the game on Saturday though rooting for the bears and hoping, hoping that I see something. The schedule from here on out actually sets up well (three home games that should be winnable). If results are to be seen now is the time.

You're totally wrong on that point. When Joe left it wasn't just him. He took some very good coaches with him to UW. Breske, Marty English, etc. Just look at the Wyo website and you'll see a bunch of our old coaches.

 

[uncfootballrules]

You're totally wrong on that point. When Joe left it wasn't just him. He took some very good coaches with him to UW. Breske, Marty English, etc. Just look at the Wyo website and you'll see a bunch of our old coaches.

Actually I am not wrong on that. When Joe left, Dalton, English (he was the d-coordinator for Dalton for at least 2 years), Rod Dobbs, Brett Harvey, Brad Bunting, and Brian Applewhite all stayed behind. That is a pretty good number of returning coaches. The point being that consistency is really productive. Kind of like Boise State has done, the HC gets a new job and there is an assistant who gets promoted and some of the remaining staff there to keep it going.

 

[formerplayer1]

As for recruiting classes, look at the whole. Yes, VJ and Doughty were in the 2001 class, but after that, what players stand out?

I can name more than a few. Ill start with current players on the squad.

Jake Gable, imo by far the current offensive leader

Jacob Thornbrue, Wyoming just about went on this kid and I believe his doing very well

Joe Kenny, a very good LB that could play at most Big sky schools

Cristian Sarmento, an over achiever that was a long shot when he joined the bears. Still a pretty decent player

Asa Matthews, not sure how well he is doing currently but I believe I have heard you guys talk about him on this board

Ryan Chesla, took a bit for him to grow up and start making plays but still appears to be one of the few current bears making plays

Shoot I could name a few more current players that aren't half bad that were recruited by Dalton and his staff but I am going to move on to former players that either have graduated or moved on.

Brain Weideman (sp), I feel he is better than any current QB although I haven't seen or heard much of that redshirt.

Andre Wilson, all time leading rusher says it all for me

Patrick Ealy, offered by BYU to play corner and was one of the few play makers the team had last year.

Bryant Jestes, offered by Wyoming and could have been pretty fine receiver had he stayed around

Jake Duren, a STUD as a true freshman but took off as soon as the old staff got fired. Would he have stay if the old staff wasn't fire, I don't know, but I would like to think he would.

Thomas Bauer, This kid could have been real good as well.

Now lets go a bit farther back to the kids that graduated before the staff was fired.

Reed Doughty, everyone knows about him

Vincent Jackson, everyone knows about him

Nate Laure (sp), one of the best centers to come through the program, Nasty Nate

Paul Hubbard, had a crap ton of sacks his senior season

Greg Gebhart, don't think he had any honors but still a mighty fine CB

This is my point BearsRadio, Don't go blaming the current woes on a staff that recruited plenty of talented players with barley any scholarships. I believe they had 43 full rides when the were fired. I will say that Glenn was a great coach and recruiter, but its just flat stupid to blame this crap ass past two season on Dalton. Also the entire staff takes part in all the recruiting that is done, so even the recruits from the Glenn era could have been recruited by Daltons staff. I do agree with the fact that they should have made the move and given the max scholarships right away but that takes money. Even with Daltons crappy recruits they almost beat a team in Florida Atlantic that made it to the quarterfinals in the playoffs, beat Montana State at there place, beat South East Louisiana State, beat Sam Houston State and never got smoked by a DII team. I say that yet we did get smoked by Grand Valley State in our last year as DII, but I would have to say they would have beat most DI AA and some D I A's that year. Although you probably didn't know most of the players that graduated a year or two before Dalton was fired do to the fact that it was Mike Rice announcing the games so maybe that's why you think most of Dalton recruits were no good.

 

[Blofeld]

The result is we overall have less talent than it takes to compete at this level. The more upsetting fact is we have less talent then we had as a DII. How would the 2002 or 2003 teams have done against Chadron State? I happen to think they would have beat them. Instead, now, we are their bitch...

So is this lack of talent partly Dalton's fault? Is it partly Downing's fault? Is it partly because the program wasn't fully funded and we tried to move up on the cheap? Was it because we weren't eligible for the playoffs for 5 years?

I think of course it's all those factors and probably also others that aren't so obvious, a decline in corporate, community, and alumni support for one. Which is a chicken/egg scenarion. Is there less support because the program has declined or has the program declined because of a increasing lack of support?

Having said all that it still is frustrating because UC Davis, NDSU and SDSU didn't seem to encounter those issues so of the four that moved up at right around the same time, 3 of those are very happy with the results while UNC is sucking hind tit.

We did something wrong...

 

[uncfootballrules]

We did something wrong...

Now there is a good poll question. What was the biggest mistake made? Holy cow that would be like opening up Pandora's box.

 

[uncfootballrules]

Can't remember where I posted it so I'll restate it here. I told you Pedersen would get lynched at Nebraska. That is what happens when your fb team is setting all time record breaking losses - the architects of that get canned. Callahan is next there IMHO. Will UNC pull the trigger?