Gigging with the Big West as a I-A Independent

[5thAvenueVik]

SportsBarVik responded to Ian's latest by writing

I would love to get an invitation to the WAC and work ourselves up to the MWC. I think that is a worthy goal and within the realm of possibility.

I would not be opposed to a Plan B, however, in which we were to join the Big West Conference (for basketball, volleyball, etc.) and becoming a I-A/FBC Independent along with Notre Dame, Army, Navy, and Temple.

Our schedule would become our hardest administrative detail, but it would also be held with great anticipation year-to-year. I can imagine a 12-game schedule with four games against the Pac-10, two games against the Mountain West, two games against the WAC, two games against the MAC, and two games at large. The scheduling would be awesome but also an awesome responsibility.

Over time, other Big West Conference schools could join us in I-A. Teams like future Big West members UC-Davis and Sac State, a current member like Cal Poly, and perhaps inspired schools resurrecting their football programs to perhaps one day achieve a full complement of Big West teams in I-A.

I like the character of the Big West member institutions. I would love for Portland State to play baseball against Cal State Fullerton and upstart UC-Riverside, volleyball against UC-Santa Barbara, UC-Irvine, and UC-Davis, and basketball against Cal Poly, Sac State, and Long Beach State. We could then all work together as a conference to strategize our mutual growth and development. These institutions have great profile similarity to our own. I like them.

Go Viks!!

Socially, I think it is a great idea to get together with UCSB, UCI, and the rest of the Big West while making ourselves into I-A/FBS Independent trailblazers for the conference as he suggested. Consider the following:

Our schtick is then to deliver enteraining big time college football to the Portland market (and win like a I-A upstart). That is our job. If we played as an I-A independent, it would mean we wouldn't be restricted as to who we brought to Portland to play us. I can imagine home-and-home series with interesting teams like:

Tulane, Army, Navy, Connecticut, Ball State, Kent State, UNLV, Temple, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State, San Jose State, Stanford, Kentucky, UCLA, Syracuse, etc.

Instead of being restricted to only 3 or 4 OOC games each year, the entire schedule would be made up of 'OOC' games, and that would make it interesting on a national scale. Eventually, the opportunity for football being added officially to the conference may present itself, but for the time being, we could be experiencing something wide open and novel each and every week.

I like the social perks of gigging with the Big West in conference. Gorgeous campuses, sunny day breaks away from the clouds. But seeking direct conference affiliation in the WAC also has its advantages. So this as he suggested---a Plan B: Another avenue of consideration.

Viva Mighty Mouse! Viva Jerry! Viva Vikings! :sunny:

 

[A1fan]

I like the Big West as well and would prefer we played in that conference. The idea of indendent 1AA in football is intriquing and brings up some questions. Would the SELECTION COMMITTEE give us a fair chance to make the playoffs? Have other 1AA independents (North Dakota, Presbyterian, Savannah St., South Dakota, Stony Brook and N.C. Central) been in the playoffs? Would we be able to schedule top teams after the first three weeks with every team playing conference games? Certainly there would be a few teams available but not many.

On the positive side, traveling South for us would be cheaper than what we have now. Also its possible that the Big West requires fewer sports than the Big Sky. Is that true or not?

Help me out. Does the Big West have an automatic bid to the "Big Show" in basketball?

If we ever made such a move, scheduling in football would have to be 1AA first with maybe one or two 1A teams per year.

 

[5thAvenueVik]

The Big West has an automatic bid to the NCAA Basketball Tournament. Here are two relevant headlines for the 2007 tournament:

o Nixon Leads Long Beach State to First Big West Tournament Title in 12 Years

o (#12) Long Beach State [24-8] Falls 121-86 to (#5) Tennessee [24-11] in NCAA First Round

If we started off as a I-AA Independent, would we be eligible for play-off selection? I believe the answer is yes. While conference winners enjoy an automatic bid to the play-offs, the tournament field is then filled with "at-large" teams, the better conferences placing at least one more team in the field of 16. But I believe there is nothing preventing an independent team from being selected as well. We may need to check the rule book on this to be absolutely sure, but my feeling is that there would not be discrimination against unaffiliated teams so long as they have a history of I-AA affiliation.

With the exception of North Dakota State, I believe none of the teams you mentioned has played well enough to qualify for the play-offs. North Dakota State was not eligible last year because of a waiting period which precludes newcomers (to I-AA) from participating in the play-offs. I believe they qualify this year because their waiting period is over, not because they joined the Gateway Conference.

My express hope is that we are able to take the I-AA Championship and use it as a pretext for entering into I-A Independent status.

Go M.D.! Go J.G.! Go V.K.s!

 

[A1fan]

The independent team is North Dakota not North Dakota State, which means you are right when you say that none of these teams played well enough to be considered for the playoffs. I am sure that independents are eligible for the playoffs. My concern is that the SELECTION COMMITTEE would be able to ignore the Viking. I feel that selecting Montana State before PSU last year was due to bias. On the other hand, being out of the BSC could have the effect of eliminating the bias because it is the Big Sky administration that favors the Montana schools.

A move out of the BS could result in other schools, such as Sac State and Northern Arizona, following us. The change would be worth the effort even after we are successful in the Big Sky.

Albert Einstein said, “No problem can be solved from the same consciousness that created it. We must learn to see the world anew.”

 

[Pounder]

The cautionary tale of the blog has little to do with moving up. If attendance does not improve significantly, there is no football at PSU. Are we sure that Glanville has sufficient pull in this particular market? (Or did JG assume the same salary that Tim Walsh had?)

To that end, what are the numbers of NEW season tickets added to date?

I've said it before and shall say it again- the Big West comes with a major price. The price of admission is that Portland State subsidizes all travel to Portland by the other schools, because the California schools prefer a bus league to a coast league. They probably won't take PSU anyway.

Next lesson: every conference has a Montana. Some are a bit more egalatarian (Michigan doesn't exactly dominate Big 10 proceedings, the Ivies... and the WAC lets either ESPN or Boise call the football shots and Nevada the hoops), some, well (do not underestimate USC's influence on the Pac-10, and do ask why the conference basketball tournament will NEVER leave Los Angeles), and then there are others (Mountain West, Brigham Young, enough said). The greener grass on the other side of the fence gets at least as much manure.

Independent, 1-A or 1-AA, requires an act of Thor to get post-season bids. I do think Cal Poly was regarded as independent the last couple years when receiving a bid. At least with the Sky comes a supposedly easy basketball conference- you can absolutely forget any chance at a decent schedule or at-large bid with Stott's current configuration and independence. The only way I can see independence working is by (1) WAY OVERBUILDING both new football and basketball venues (minimums 60K and 14K), and (2) hoping the publicity of the new venues alone creates interest to actually fill the facilities so PSU can afford the big contracts with big schools. It's not the way to bet. Seriously.

 

[A1fan]

The cautionary tale of the blog has little to do with moving up. If attendance does not improve significantly, there is no football at PSU. Are we sure that Glanville has sufficient pull in this particular market? (Or did JG assume the same salary that Tim Walsh had?)

Ergo we can't discuss moving out of the BSC.

I've said it before and shall say it again- the Big West comes with a major price. The price of admission is that Portland State subsidizes all travel to Portland by the other schools, because the California schools prefer a bus league to a coast league. They probably won't take PSU anyway.

This is why people negotiate. Things can be changed with effort.

Next lesson: every conference has a Montana.

So, professor, who said Montana was the reason to leave the BSC. In my opinion they and Montana State are the only reasons to stay in the BSC.

This discussion would be best if you didn't talk down to people who disagree with you.

 

[Pounder]

Please excuse me for my tone there... but I've lived a bit too long to not separate the places where optimism is needed and the places where MONEY is needed.

Ergo we can't discuss moving out of the BSC.

Actually, dropping football is the quickest way out of the BSC. I'm not about to characterize that as a good thing. I fear the moves proposed push the program down, not up.

This is why people negotiate. Things can be changed with effort.

I can appreciate the sentiment, but it is just not the way to bet.

This bunch of schools has no notion of upward mobility (it was obvious in Boise when the Big West dropped football and set terms for remaining schools Idaho and Utah State). If you thought Portland State was negligent in the "you must spend money to make money" department for the past several years, you should see this bunch. They seem like dynamic metropolitan institutions in a fast-growing state, but these schools are uproariously cost-conscious in regards to athletics. I put the odds of the Big West accepting Portland State at about 50-1. A major donor who can bring subsidy money- or better, TELEVISION- changes those odds considerably, but the odds of that are factored into my little guess.

So, professor, who said Montana was the reason to leave the BSC. In my opinion they and Montana State are the only reasons to stay in the BSC.

I am guilty, and shall always be guilty, of realizing that open boards are likely to be read by more than one person... and this has been a strong sentiment of some people here. I can see why some people want to get out. I've simply (well, OK, I rarely write simply) stated for years that the horse goes in front of the cart... going 1-A means selling seats now, raising money, raising the profile of other sports in the AD, and so on. Of course, it wouldn't hurt if the WAC got desperate again, but they ain't there yet.

 

[pottystops]

Since the new PSU A.D. worked for 2 Big West schools, anything is possible, he has the connections. The big question is whether PSU Volleyball program can complete with the likes of Long Beach, Santa Barbara, UOP, etc.

 

[A1fan]

Moving to a situation that would put many of our road games in southern venues appeals to me since I have the time and like to travel to the road games. SLO vs Missoula. Davis vs Bozeman, Long Beach vs Ogden; all have a better feel in the fall.

You are probably right, Pounder, in that it won't happen any time soon, but its a nice idea to kick around. California is great to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

 

[Pounder]

Of course, A1, I skipped over what you posted suggesting 1-AA errrr Football Championship independence.

I've got an interesting little batch of data here... game attendance going back to 2002:

2002: (in chronological order IIRC, average 7,735)
Stephen F. Austin . 6,074
North Carolina A&T . 10,012
Southwest Texas State . 5,807
Eastern Washington . 5,824
Montana . 12,733
Idaho State . 5,959

2003 (avg 6,260):
Texas A&M Kingsville . 10,519
Nicholls State . 5,627
Northern Arizona . 6,832
Sacramento State . 4,921
Weber State . 4,331
Montana State . 5,331

2004 (avg 5,925):
Western State . 5,703
McNeese State . 6,802
Eastern Washington . 6,476
Montana . 8,413
Idaho State . 4,129
UC Davis . 4,026

2005 (avg 6,597):
Sacramento State . 4,617
Northern Colorado . 5,371
Montana State . 10,443
Northern Arizona . 7,243
Weber State . 5,310

2006 (avg 7,296):
Northern Colorado . 4,936
Montana . 13,156
Idaho State . 4,549
Eastern Washington . 6,541

Now, this would be more fair with 2001 numbers. Anyone got those? That means we at least would have a roughly equal number of games from each BSC school 'cept the newbie.

We all know Montana brings fans.

All of the games with California schools draw under average. Of course, I wonder what happens the next time Davis shows up...

The only other school that's consistently over average: Northern Arizona. That would have been about 6th on my list of guesses.

Knowing that Grambling was a draw, and seeing some of the other numbers, clearly PSU is destined for the SWAC or Southland, no? (Trying to leave D-2 out of the discussion for now)

 

[A1fan]

I attended nearly all those games. I didn't need to read tham to know what that there has been an attendance problem. What you did tell us is: attendance for the last few years are irrelevant. Whgat will be relevant are the attendance figures for the next three years.

I'll bet my first born that your figures will not be comparable to the next three years.

 

[A1fan]

RE: 1A vs 1AA independent . . . I quess I did change the subject!