JC recruiting

[bengalcub]

I think ISU requires AA in hand prior transferring and they do not count progress toward a degree. This will eliminate a healthy chunk of potential athletes, and it hurts Idaho State on some of the mid-year transfers. Most schools covet the kids that can come in for the spring. If I am wrong, someone may be able to shed some light.

 

[up for the challenge]

I think ISU requires AA in hand prior transferring and they do not count progress toward a degree. This will eliminate a healthy chunk of potential athletes, and it hurts Idaho State on some of the mid-year transfers. Most schools covet the kids that can come in for the spring. If I am wrong, someone may be able to shed some light.

If they qualify bring them in and red shirt them like most of the incoming high school freshmen. Build a team with incoming freshmen, JUCO's, and step downs. No guarantees of starting spots when you have a mix group every year. Make it competitive and the wins will come if the recruiting is good. That is my philosophy. Each head coach is different. Coach Phen will do it his way to win games.

 

[clawsout]

....in reply to "Ups" question about "more wins" in '18....I would like to think the answer is "yes".....BUT with the strange schedule....due to TOO MANY teams in the Big Sky Conference....it is a hard question....as when Kramer was 8 and 4....it was a pretty soft schedule IMHO....couple that with the fact we lost to the two Montana's ...and there went the case to be in the playoffs....but the schedule each year currently lends itself to the fact you could have a decent record but maybe did not play the strongest teams in the Big Sky that year....or you could have a tough schedule and maybe finish 5 and 6...and yet you might have actually "improved" from the previous year....i.e....played teams "closer", no blowouts, etc.... :twocents:

 

[PBP]

i never said to bring in massive numbers of JUCO players. What I have said for the last 6 years is a head coach should build a relationship with many JUCO head coaches so when there is a Need for a JUCO player you can call that JUCO head coach to see if they have a player that fits that position of need. Coach Phen will do what he needs to do to win games. His philosophy is not like Kramer when coaching or recruiting. I do not think Coach Phen can wait like Kramer to win games as he was hired to win games starting in 2017. He will have to show more wins in 2018. Do you agree or not about more wins in 2018? [/quote]

The ISU football coaches over the years have always had relationships with JUCO head coaches. Look at the rosters for the past 20 years, they are dotted with JUCO's under the different staffs, so that relationship is and has been there. The current staff has already gotten JUCO's so obviously, logically they must have some kind of relationship already.

Given the fact that he is early in his new contract, the fact that ISU will have just payed off Mike in two weeks and the difficulty of the road games overall (to say nothing of two money games among them), I do not think at all, that Rob is under any pressure, real or imagined to have to win more games in 2018 than in 2017.

He may in fact win less but still make overall progress in turning the program around.

I hope he wins more, I think he can but as always with ISU the schedule and injuries are going to play a large part in if that takes place or not. It would help, if football could play six or seven home games a year...but that is very unlikely.

PBP

 

[up for the challenge]

i never said to bring in massive numbers of JUCO players. What I have said for the last 6 years is a head coach should build a relationship with many JUCO head coaches so when there is a Need for a JUCO player you can call that JUCO head coach to see if they have a player that fits that position of need. Coach Phen will do what he needs to do to win games. His philosophy is not like Kramer when coaching or recruiting. I do not think Coach Phen can wait like Kramer to win games as he was hired to win games starting in 2017. He will have to show more wins in 2018. Do you agree or not about more wins in 2018?

The ISU football coaches over the years have always had relationships with JUCO head coaches. Look at the rosters for the past 20 years, they are dotted with JUCO's under the different staffs, so that relationship is and has been there. The current staff has already gotten JUCO's so obviously, logically they must have some kind of relationship already.

Given the fact that he is early in his new contract, the fact that ISU will have just payed off Mike in two weeks and the difficulty of the road games overall (to say nothing of two money games among them), I do not think at all, that Rob is under any pressure, real or imagined to have to win more games in 2018 than in 2017.

He may in fact win less but still make overall progress in turning the program around.

I hope he wins more, I think he can but as always with ISU the schedule and injuries are going to play a large part in if that takes place or not. It would help, if football could play six or seven home games a year...but that is very unlikely.

PBP
[/quote]

I doubt Kramer had any contact relationships with JUCO head coaches as he said many times if a JUCO player has good grades they can contact the football office at ISU. He also said many times that he would never take one step onto a JUCO campus. Most of the JUCO players he signed contacted the football office at ISU. Kramer liked giving walkons scholarships that had a good GPA. I never heard so many excuses to why ISU cannot win games. The good teams find away to win every year and expect to win every year.

 

[PBP]

I doubt Kramer had any contact relationships with JUCO head coaches.I never heard so many excuses to why ISU cannot win games. The good teams find away to win every year and expect to win every year.
[/quote]

You'd be wrong on the first part.

As to the second comment, based on your statement, ISU obviously isn't a "good team"... just look at the record over 40+ seasons but like it or not there are factors at work (as has been pointed out in the past very thoughtfully) that are in play to make their situation more difficult than other teams even in the Big Sky.

That's the reality of things. You can accept it or not, up to you, but the conditions aren't going away in the short term regardless. Doesn't mean the program shouldn't try to win, I've yet to meet one coach or player who doesn't expect to do so. That's a good start in my view regardless of circumstances.

Give Rob a chance to build things his way and then judge him after he's had a body of work under his belt.

Maybe he's the guy who can beat the odds...we'll find out.

PBP

 

[up for the challenge]

I thought the program was rebuilt by Coach Kramer after 6 seasons of recruiting? Why should the fans give Coach Phen time to have a winning season when coach Kramer said it would take 4 -5 seasons to start winning games? Coach Kramer left the program because he could not win games and coach Phen was hired to win games according to AD Tingey. If not, why change head coaches? I think Coach Phen knows he has to produce winning seasons so he will go out and recruit the players he needs to start winning games immediately and not wait 3 or 4 years down the road to have a winning season like coach Kramer wanted to do. I believe Coach Phen will bring in more JUCOs and step down players the next couple of years to shore up his current team and positions of need. We will see what he does this recruiting season. PBP thinks coach Phen philosophy is the same as coach Kramer when it comes to recruiting JUCOS. I do not think so as he has already signed 2 JUCO players. I believe you will see more this recruiting season and more next recruiting season.

 

[demian]

I thought the program was rebuilt by Coach Kramer after 6 seasons of recruiting? Why should the fans give Coach Phen time to have a winning season when coach Kramer said it would take 4 -5 seasons to start winning games? Coach Kramer left the program because he could not win games and coach Phen was hired to win games according to AD Tingey. If not, why change head coaches? I think Coach Phen knows he has to produce winning seasons so he will go out and recruit the players he needs to start winning games immediately and not wait 3 or 4 years down the road to have a winning season like coach Kramer. I believe he will bring in more JUCOs and step down players the next couple of years to shore up his current team. We will see what he does this recruiting season.

Brought in two step down players in Keiran Yancy and Gunner Amos last summer from Oregon State and U of Idaho respectively, that seems reasonable doesnt it? Possible a few more players might transfer or retire or leave for a variety of reasons after spring practice session so at that point there might be some room for drop down players. I like what coach Phenice said following the Portland State game this season after we dropped 60 on them, he said something to the effect of "that teams entire defensive secondary, plus more roster spots is filled with drop down players from FBS and look how well that is working for them this season" (0-11 record)

 

[up for the challenge]

I thought the program was rebuilt by Coach Kramer after 6 seasons of recruiting? Why should the fans give Coach Phen time to have a winning season when coach Kramer said it would take 4 -5 seasons to start winning games? Coach Kramer left the program because he could not win games and coach Phen was hired to win games according to AD Tingey. If not, why change head coaches? I think Coach Phen knows he has to produce winning seasons so he will go out and recruit the players he needs to start winning games immediately and not wait 3 or 4 years down the road to have a winning season like coach Kramer. I believe he will bring in more JUCOs and step down players the next couple of years to shore up his current team. We will see what he does this recruiting season.

Brought in two step down players in Keiran Yancy and Gunner Amos last summer from Oregon State and U of Idaho respectively, that seems reasonable doesnt it? Possible a few more players might transfer or retire or leave for a variety of reasons after spring practice session so at that point there might be some room for drop down players. I like what coach Phenice said following the Portland State game this season after we dropped 60 on them, he said something to the effect of "that teams entire defensive secondary, plus more roster spots is filled with drop down players from FBS and look how well that is working for them this season" (0-11 record)

Yes he did but both did not play much. We need JUCOs and Step Downs that are At Need players that are considered starters before they suit up the first day of Fall practice. Coach Phen should not say too much about an 0-11 team in Portland State as Portland State had a good year In 2016 and normally beats us. They just had a bad season in 2017. Everybody beat them.. not just us.

 

[demian]

I thought the program was rebuilt by Coach Kramer after 6 seasons of recruiting? Why should the fans give Coach Phen time to have a winning season when coach Kramer said it would take 4 -5 seasons to start winning games? Coach Kramer left the program because he could not win games and coach Phen was hired to win games according to AD Tingey. If not, why change head coaches? I think Coach Phen knows he has to produce winning seasons so he will go out and recruit the players he needs to start winning games immediately and not wait 3 or 4 years down the road to have a winning season like coach Kramer. I believe he will bring in more JUCOs and step down players the next couple of years to shore up his current team. We will see what he does this recruiting season.

Brought in two step down players in Keiran Yancy and Gunner Amos last summer from Oregon State and U of Idaho respectively, that seems reasonable doesnt it? Possible a few more players might transfer or retire or leave for a variety of reasons after spring practice session so at that point there might be some room for drop down players. I like what coach Phenice said following the Portland State game this season after we dropped 60 on them, he said something to the effect of "that teams entire defensive secondary, plus more roster spots is filled with drop down players from FBS and look how well that is working for them this season" (0-11 record)

Yes he did but both did not play much. We need JUCOs and Step Downs that are At Need players that are considered starters before they suit up the first day of Fall practice. Coach Phen should not say too much about an 0-11 team in Portland State as Portland State had a good year In 2016 and normally beats us. They just had a bad season in 2017. Everybody beat them.. not just us.

touche

 

[sasquatch]

Yes he did but both did not play much. We need JUCOs and Step Downs that are At Need players that are considered starters before they suit up the first day of Fall practice. Coach Phen should not say too much about an 0-11 team in Portland State as Portland State had a good year In 2016 and normally beats us. They just had a bad season in 2017. Everybody beat them.. not just us.

No, Portland State had a 3-8 record in 2016. Last year they went 0-11. That's 3-19 over the last two seasons, for those who are counting. They had a great season in 2015, Bruce Barnum's first, and with most of Nigel Burton's recruits. I wouldn't say Barnum's recruiting strategy is working, based on the last two seasons, but he's been given another year.

 

[Bengals]

As far as the drop downs, Yancy added an athlete and a player who can return kicks to the team. He also came with his brother who is a coach so maybe a package deal, but I think a positive addition. Amos was brought in because there was not a QB on the roster ready to be a #2 behind Tanner and you must have a true #2 in college football. I think Amos brings a lot to the program and will be ready to contribute after a full off-season and then I predict he will be a very good starting QB his Senior year. So even though not starters both brought value and depth to the program.

 

[up for the challenge]

As far as the drop downs, Yancy added an athlete and a player who can return kicks to the team. He also came with his brother who is a coach so maybe a package deal, but I think a positive addition. Amos was brought in because there was not a QB on the roster ready to be a #2 behind Tanner and you must have a true #2 in college football. I think Amos brings a lot to the program and will be ready to contribute after a full off-season and then I predict he will be a very good starting QB his Senior year. So even though not starters both brought value and depth to the program.

Why would the football program want Transfers that play backup. Why would a transfer come to ISU to play backup? We need Transfers that will start immediately based on the At Need positions identified by coaches. Waste of scholarship if they play backup or just play sometimes. If players are not starting by their junior year or playing half of the game by their junior year than something is wrong.

 

[Bengals]

Up, I think that depends on the depth of the position and there were some issues when Coach Phen took over especially at QB. I do think that by year three of Coach Phen's program rebuild he should have built most of his depth through recruiting and then fill in holes with JC/Drop down players that can fill those holes right away. No matter how well you recruit they do not all work out. Some get hurt, do not make it in school, get home sick, transfer, or just do not develop like you had hoped. That is why you will always need some JC/Drop Down help.

 

[up for the challenge]

Up, I think that depends on the depth of the position and there were some issues when Coach Phen took over especially at QB. I do think that by year three of Coach Phen's program rebuild he should have built most of his depth through recruiting and then fill in holes with JC/Drop down players that can fill those holes right away. No matter how well you recruit they do not all work out. Some get hurt, do not make it in school, get home sick, transfer, or just do not develop like you had hoped. That is why you will always need some JC/Drop Down help.

Bengals,

Coach Phen received 6 years of recruiting from coach Kramer and has had 1 year of signing players from last season as a head coach. Coach Phen has a full team of scholarship players and walkons. This is not a rebuild team for coach Phen. This is an experienced team that knows the program. We should be winning 500% of our league games by now if Kramer recruited and signed good players. When a JUCO or Step Down player signs with ISU that players is considered an At Need player and that player expects to be a starter. Why would any JUCO or Step Down player come to ISU to play a back up role? Why would any head coach sign a JUCO or Step Down player to play a back up role? It would be better to go the high school route and wait for them to become a junior to be a starter. I do not know about you but I would not transfer into a school to sit the bench. The head coach would have to guarantee to me that I would be a starter in the first game when recruiting me.

 

[demian]

Up, I think that depends on the depth of the position and there were some issues when Coach Phen took over especially at QB. I do think that by year three of Coach Phen's program rebuild he should have built most of his depth through recruiting and then fill in holes with JC/Drop down players that can fill those holes right away. No matter how well you recruit they do not all work out. Some get hurt, do not make it in school, get home sick, transfer, or just do not develop like you had hoped. That is why you will always need some JC/Drop Down help.

Bengals,

Coach Phen received 6 years of recruiting from coach Kramer and has had 1 year of signing players from last season as a head coach. Coach Phen has a full team of scholarship players and walkons. This is not a rebuild team for coach Phen. This is an experienced team that knows the program. We should be winning 500% of our league games by now if Kramer recruited and signed good players. When a JUCO or Step Down player signs with ISU that players is considered an At Need player and that player expects to be a starter. Why would any JUCO or Step Down player come to ISU to play a back up role? Why would any head coach sign a JUCO or Step Down player to play a back up role? It would be better to go the high school route and wait for them to become a junior to be a starter. I do not know about you but I would not transfer into a school to sit the bench. The head coach would have to guarantee to me that I would be a starter in the first game when recruiting me.

UP, I respectfully disagree on this topic regarding "Guarantee to be a starter in 1st game" if a player is a transfer. If a player is dropping down from FBS to FCS i would have to believe it is because he is not playing much at the FBS level, so what guarantee would a staff have that that drop down player who is not playing at FBS is better than any of his starters that are returning or any of his young players who return that are already in his program. I think its safe to say in alot of cases a backup at FBS who is like 4th team on a FBS team is not absolutely better than a FCS second or third teamer. I would say they could be equal but i would feel real comfortable sayaing that that backup FBS player is certainly not guaranteed to better than a starter at an FCS school. We return ALOT OF STARTERS and reserves from last years team so as a coach how could you absolutely say a FBS backup is garanteed to move ahead of those guys. wouldnt it be wise to tell the kid, we have most of our team returning but we want you hear and we expect you to compete and battle in practice and if you are better than the returning guys you will elevate up the depth chart. That would be the risk in transfering i would think. A JC player i would say is the same thing. I would not concede that a JC transfer is automatically better than guys already in the program and therefore guaranteed a starting spot. Now i would obviously say there is a CHANCE that those transfers FBS or JC COULD be better but they better come in and battle and compete like any other recruit at ISU should. And to answer "why would any JUCO or step down player come to ISU to play a back up role?" Well then maybe they shouldnt come to ISU if they cant handle not being guaranteed to be a starter, i would not want a player on my team who couldnt accept having to battle and compete and i would certainly not want a large amount of those types of players on my roster. Just my thoughts. Its good dialogue though UP

 

[Tacoma5]

Up, I think that depends on the depth of the position and there were some issues when Coach Phen took over especially at QB. I do think that by year three of Coach Phen's program rebuild he should have built most of his depth through recruiting and then fill in holes with JC/Drop down players that can fill those holes right away. No matter how well you recruit they do not all work out. Some get hurt, do not make it in school, get home sick, transfer, or just do not develop like you had hoped. That is why you will always need some JC/Drop Down help.

Bengals,

Coach Phen received 6 years of recruiting from coach Kramer and has had 1 year of signing players from last season as a head coach. Coach Phen has a full team of scholarship players and walkons. This is not a rebuild team for coach Phen. This is an experienced team that knows the program. We should be winning 500% of our league games by now if Kramer recruited and signed good players. When a JUCO or Step Down player signs with ISU that players is considered an At Need player and that player expects to be a starter. Why would any JUCO or Step Down player come to ISU to play a back up role? Why would any head coach sign a JUCO or Step Down player to play a back up role? It would be better to go the high school route and wait for them to become a junior to be a starter. I do not know about you but I would not transfer into a school to sit the bench. The head coach would have to guarantee to me that I would be a starter in the first game when recruiting me.

UP, I respectfully disagree on this topic regarding "Guarantee to be a starter in 1st game" if a player is a transfer. If a player is dropping down from FBS to FCS i would have to believe it is because he is not playing much at the FBS level, so what guarantee would a staff have that that drop down player who is not playing at FBS is better than any of his starters that are returning or any of his young players who return that are already in his program. I think its safe to say in alot of cases a backup at FBS who is like 4th team on a FBS team is not absolutely better than a FCS second or third teamer. I would say they could be equal but i would feel real comfortable sayaing that that backup FBS player is certainly not guaranteed to better than a starter at an FCS school. We return ALOT OF STARTERS and reserves from last years team so as a coach how could you absolutely say a FBS backup is garanteed to move ahead of those guys. wouldnt it be wise to tell the kid, we have most of our team returning but we want you hear and we expect you to compete and battle in practice and if you are better than the returning guys you will elevate up the depth chart. That would be the risk in transfering i would think. A JC player i would say is the same thing. I would not concede that a JC transfer is automatically better than guys already in the program and therefore guaranteed a starting spot. Now i would obviously say there is a CHANCE that those transfers FBS or JC COULD be better but they better come in and battle and compete like any other recruit at ISU should. And to answer "why would any JUCO or step down player come to ISU to play a back up role?" Well then maybe they shouldnt come to ISU if they cant handle not being guaranteed to be a starter, i would not want a player on my team who couldnt accept having to battle and compete and i would certainly not want a large amount of those types of players on my roster. Just my thoughts. Its good dialogue though UP

Agree with your statement 100%. When Spring and Fall football occur EVERYONE is on the same playing field competing. Sure there are some preferred starters from the previous year and those who have shown their potential but there's no guaranteed starting spots on a college football team when the new year is coming. Some of these transfers could come in and be a flop. Some could be the best thing since sliced bread, but how could a coach guarantee a dropdown or JUCO when they have no idea of their performance or interaction with our team and system? So many factors at play, that no matter the player at any level should be guaranteed a starting position just from signing a letter.

 

[up for the challenge]

I hear what you are saying and you maybe right about Transfers coming into a program to compete for a starting spot but these ISU coaches know their current players talents and would know if they are ready to be a starter or not. If these coaches feel there is a need for a transfer than they would have done their homework by watching plenty of film on these At Need players before bringing them into the program.

 

[up for the challenge]

Signing only two JUCOs for the 2018 season is not enough.

 

[Bengals]

I agree so I am glad we have 5 already (1-OL, 2-DB, 1-DL, 1-LB). We also have offers to at least one more LB and OL. If you include the BSU drop down DB then that brings us to 6 JC/Drop Down players on campus right now with the possible addition of at least 2 more. I also know we have a few mission kids who are going to be joining the program so we have a good addition of some new "older" players.