Unrealistic new FBS conference

[Green Cookie Monster]

With all the fire drill discussions about conference shuffling, FCS to FBS and decimated state higher education budgets, I bemused the idea of a new western based FBS conference. This arrangement would be based on travel cost containment, regionalization for rivalries and the belief that the member instituitions fully commit to funding for competing at the FBS level and cap the maximum budget at $25M overall. Maintain parity and competitiveness across the league while maintaining an annual budget that would be sustainable and within reason.

This also takes into the consideration that the current FCS schools really want to move to FBS. We all heard and read second-hand quotes, but none of the FCS schools I'll list have officially stated to the public its intention of changing to FBS.

Sacramento State (20th media market)
UC davis (21st media market) apparently cows count
Cal Poly (120th)
SJSU (6th media market)
Portland State (22nd media market)
NAU

Considerations:
Hawaii
Idaho
Montana
Montana State
Utah Valley
Denver

I've left off Fresno and Nevada as they are chasing rainbows and the MWC. And are superior athletically and academically to even consider such a heresy suggestion that they pair with their local peers to form a logical conference. Only reason Hawaii is added is it would provide a viable conference home to its non-football programs, they might go indy at that point too. Idaho has a budget that is equal to the Cali schools now. They wouldnt lose much $ by leaving the WAC. Utah Valley only if they added football.

If media share is truly driving conference shuffles and call-ups to FCS, then this new conference would bullseye the goal.

Ego's would have to be left at the door, in reality the FBS teams listed would have to accept the fact that new FCS call-ups are just as good, if not better, in the perceived societal acceptance vote. I get a kick-out of reading the WAC boards and the chest beating that takes place.

 

[Siouxfan]

With all the fire drill discussions about conference shuffling, FCS to FBS and decimated state higher education budgets, I bemused the idea of a new western based FBS conference. This arrangement would be based on travel cost containment, regionalization for rivalries and the belief that the member instituitions fully commit to funding for competing at the FBS level and cap the maximum budget at $25M overall. Maintain parity and competitiveness across the league while maintaining an annual budget that would be sustainable and within reason.

This also takes into the consideration that the current FCS schools really want to move to FBS. We all heard and read second-hand quotes, but none of the FCS schools I'll list have officially stated to the public its intention of changing to FBS.

Sacramento State (20th media market)
UC davis (21st media market) apparently cows count
Cal Poly (120th)
SJSU (6th media market)
Portland State (22nd media market)
NAU

Considerations:
Hawaii
Idaho
Montana
Montana State
Utah Valley
Denver

I've left off Fresno and Nevada as they are chasing rainbows and the MWC. And are superior athletically and academically to even consider such a heresy suggestion that they pair with their local peers to form a logical conference. Only reason Hawaii is added is it would provide a viable conference home to its non-football programs, they might go indy at that point too. Idaho has a budget that is equal to the Cali schools now. They wouldnt lose much $ by leaving the WAC. Utah Valley only if they added football.

If media share is truly driving conference shuffles and call-ups to FCS, then this new conference would bullseye the goal.

Ego's would have to be left at the door, in reality the FBS teams listed would have to accept the fact that new FCS call-ups are just as good, if not better, in the perceived societal acceptance vote. I get a kick-out of reading the WAC boards and the chest beating that takes place.

Have long thought that the basic premise of what you wrote is correct. Just wanted to throw a few more thoughts and perspectives out there.

First, BYU's AD Holmoe will not comment if the Big 12 has interest in adding BYU. Why wouldn't he comment? Because the Big12 is actively considering BYU - and Boise St. Jerry Jones and his stadium really want Arkansas in the Big 12, but Arkansas is making to much money in the SEC. In spite of what it says to the contrary, the Big 12 really needs 12 teams, and it needs to meet it's contractual obligations with Jerry Jones' stadium and hold a championship game. BYU and Boise St to the Big 12 may happen by 2012.

If that occurs, the MWC gets hosed, as it would probably lose TCU. But the MWC would be down at least seven, and then have to offer Fresno St and likely Nevada. Even Utah State could get interest because the MWC would no longer have a team in Utah.

So then the WAC would be down to:
Hawaii
San Jose St
Idaho
N Mex St
Utah St (maybe)
La Tech (likely gone too)

The WAC would have a difficult time surviving because of scheduling and FBS transition issues. The NCAA might grant it an exemption.

So what would be a possible solution?

Effectively all the California FCS schools and Portland State are asked to join.

Hawaii
San Jose St
Cal Poly
Sac St
UC Davis
Portland St
Idaho
Utah St
N Mex St

That's effectively the new Big West under different management. Idaho, Utah State, and N Mex St don't want that. They want more mountain influence. N Mex St has other options and would likely even go back to the SunBelt if it couldn't get in CUSA. NMSU is probably gone.

But to keep Idaho and Utah State satisfied and to maintain a truer wester market, Montana and Montana State would be added.

Benson has stated his longer term goal is 12 members. How would he obtain that? Add Weber St? Not if Utah State could help it. NAU can't afford football now. There are no other options in the West. But there are two schools with FBS ambitions, high athletic budgets, state surpluses, good fan support, and remarkably good facilities: North Dakota and North Dakota St. A dream of Montana and North Dakota schools has always been to unite the Northern Tier states under one conference. A WAC Mountain division of could become reality later this decade:

WAC Mountain

Idaho
Montana
Montana St
Utah St
N Dakota
N Dakota St

would bring together similar smaller state research institutions with common interests and goal.

Likewise, a WAC Pacific division of

Hawaii
UCDavis
Sac State
Cal Poly
San Jose St
Portland St

would offer good rivalries, and the opportunity for FBS games against Pac10 and MWC schools.

With the exception of Hawaii, the conference would essentially be upper-level FCS schools that move to FBS to ensure their football not only survives but flourishes with decent rivals. In other sports, non-football schools could be brought in (Denver in Mountain, Seattle in Pacific) so that cross-divisional games are rare and travel minimized.

 

[Green Cookie Monster]

Good points, here are some darts thrown at the balloon....

a). Can Montana support two FBS teams? Small markets, stretched budgets, similar to Idaho & Boise
b). The NODAKS play in domes that are not expandable economically, again small markets, but only game in state
c). The new Big Worst Conference is a valid point, but unlike fullerton, long beach, et al. the new schools are committed to FBS and have the facilities and following to back it up so I don't think that lineage would carry over
d). Wouldn't Boise face stiff MWC penalties if they abandoned the MWC before even really joining?
e). Do the FCS schools really want to move to FBS? None have publicly stated this intention
f). BTW..on a Sac State fan forum never mention or list UCFE before Sac State

 

[Siouxfan]

Good points, here are some darts thrown at the balloon....

a). Can Montana support two FBS teams? Small markets, stretched budgets, similar to Idaho & Boise
b). The NODAKS play in domes that are not expandable economically, again small markets, but only game in state
c). The new Big Worst Conference is a valid point, but unlike fullerton, long beach, et al. the new schools are committed to FBS and have the facilities and following to back it up so I don't think that lineage would carry over
d). Wouldn't Boise face stiff MWC penalties if they abandoned the MWC before even really joining?
e). Do the FCS schools really want to move to FBS? None have publicly stated this intention
f). BTW..on a Sac State fan forum never mention or list UCFE before Sac State

a. Montana State will do what's needed to keep up with Montana. Northern Louisiana support two FBS teams within 50 miles from each other (UL-M and La Tech) where LSU fans are predominant. Both Montana schools have larger metros and better access than Moscow, Idaho ever has had.

b. NDSU already has an FBS-ready dome. UND plays in a dome that is technically expandable - as there isn't seating behind the end zones - there are walls that could be pushed out. Also, UND still has an on-campus stadium that could be expanded and then cold-weather games played in the dome.
What is not understood by outsiders is that both schools have large Minnesota followings (NDSU is more than 50% Minnesotan, UND 40% with about 15-20% neither ND nor Minn due to aviation, aerospace and grad programs) and much of NW Minnesota have natural allegiances to those schools. Minnesota has no second tier public schools (although Minn-Duluth is getting there) and ND and Minn have tuition reciprocity.
Also, UND has a larger athletic budget than any current Big Sky or Dakota school, some wealthy benefactors, and basically has a athletic gold mine with the 240,000 fans that attend hockey matches @ around $25 / pop (not including seat licenses). If in the WAC, both schools would be high in the research (more than $100 mill each). UND and NDSU in the WAC is probably a long shot in most people's eyes, but ND is becoming an oil-rich state and already has huge state surpluses (nearly $1 Bill) - education funding isn't stretched and is actually expanding (i.e. UND's Med school will practically double in size with new state funding) and the oil boom is expected to continue for 20 years. Both Universities also have high tech spinoffs that are creating a surprising dynamic local business scenes and opportunities for grads (as well as 3.5% unemployment).

UND has a much larger alumni base than NDSU (and both larger than SDSU) and - in comparison with NDSU - has lower football attendance in part because much of the alumni and fan base associate more with the hockey team that counts Minnesota and Wisconsin as fierce (and sometimes ugly) rivals, has seven DI championships and a host of NHL players. Football benefactors at UND are attempting to grow football to a higher level to tap into some of that alumni backing. The only way to do that is FBS.

c. Agree. Sac, Cal Poly, and UCFE (what does the "FE" stand for?) are all committed to football, unlike Fullerton, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, etc etc.

d. If BYU and/or Boise could get in the Big 12, the exit fees from the MWC would be peanuts compared to what they would make in the Big 12.

e. Montana's AD has said FCS is not viable long-term. What they don't want is to be in a league where they can't win. With Boise gone, part of their dream is closer to realization, especially if Idaho and Montana State are with them. UND and NDSU would be icing on their dream (As states, North Dakota and Montana are actually state rivals - moreso than ND and SD - because historically transportation moved east-west, not north-south). Cal Poly and UCFE know that they need to move up or be screwed. UND officials have made it known that a longer-term goal of DI is to get in an FBS league - our current football coach has stated that as a goal. NDSU is very aggressive about their football program - no one questions if they want FBS, just when and how.

f. Oops! Pardon me!

 

[SactoHornetAlum]

UCFE= UC Farm Extension (aka davis)

 

[superhornet]

1. I just can't see this without Weber. They're too good to leave behind.

2. How do we have NDSU without SDSU? From what I hear, that's a rivalry on a par with Sac-vs.-the-Manure-Pile and Griz-Cat. And how do the UXDs fit in there? From what I've heard, the UXDs have NOTHING on the XDSUs.

3. We all know the SUU whiners are going to try to kick in the door. I still don't think we want those guys.

Other than that, this is some pretty good doings. Thanks, Sioux.

 

[Siouxfan]

1. I just can't see this without Weber. They're too good to leave behind.

2. How do we have NDSU without SDSU? From what I hear, that's a rivalry on a par with Sac-vs.-the-Manure-Pile and Griz-Cat. And how do the UXDs fit in there? From what I've heard, the UXDs have NOTHING on the XDSUs.

3. We all know the SUU whiners are going to try to kick in the door. I still don't think we want those guys.

Other than that, this is some pretty good doings. Thanks, Sioux.

First off, it's all grand ambitions anyway.

1. If Utah St is somewhere else, Weber get's in.

2. NDSU/SDSU's relationship is practically totally manufactured. NDSU begged and pleaded with SDSU to move up with them, so NDSU fans are eternally grateful. Only after NDSU/UND game stopped did the NDSU/SDSU game become a "trophy" game. There's practically no hate there. They embraced each other to get away from the in-state rivals. UND, which was by far the most capable (having almost $250 million in new athletic facilities), didn't move up earlier because the community it is in was still dealing with a $1 billion in flood damages. UND waited until the local business community sufficiently recovered. USD only has around 8000 student and is located in a town of around 8000 has practically no real resources located in the far SE corner of SD. Their state-built dome, which got a real roof when the inflatable kept getting torn up, houses practically it's entire athletic department. Imagine both basketball teams, the football team, and the volleyball teams all needing the same facility for practice and games. That's the reality at USD. When UND declared DI, USD had no choice but to follow. They have some deep-pocketed alumni (like Tom Brokaw), but doubt they'd give much to athletics.

Take a look at this photo:
http://www.ragsdalesteel.com/images/album/Dakota2.jpg
If you go to a NDSU message board, it's practically non-stop UND bashing. If they don't care about UND, why do they talk about us all the time?

Answer: we've historically dominated them (they were really only good in the 60's and 80's), we have a more impressive athletic department, more alumni, better facilities, and better academics.

BTW, have you ever been to SDSU's stadium? Campus? Brookings? SDSU is growing and all and has some fine programs and has a decent basketball facility, but even you wouldn't wish it's football stadium on UCFE. (or maybe you would!). SDSU's stadium is basically 3rd world status. Disgusting outdoor johnnies. Creaking visiting bleachers. Main structure concrete of dubious integrity. Double-wide trailers cut in half sitting on top of the bleacher section for press boxes. Rodent-infested visiting lockerrooms a half-mile away. It has a nice scoreboard, though. :lol:

SDSU has little more than half UND's athletic budget. USD less than half.

3. SUU, NAU, EWU, UNC, Idaho St, Weber make their own little FCS conference with Central Washington, Utah Valley and whatever else is left of DII in the west.

Heres some photos of UND facilities:

Alerus Center (football)

Alerus Complex: attached hotel, convention center and water park to Alerus

Engelstad Complex (main arena, Olympic hockey practice arena, 3200 seat BB/VB center designed for practice)

BB/VB Practice

Sorry, kind of got carried away with the photos.

 

[Green Cookie Monster]

So what is the new mascot/nickname of UND?

I loathe NDSU and it's fans. Because they beat us in a '88 playoff game and because their internet posters are asses.

Why did Lennon leave? Sounds like he had a good gig and actually turned Sac State down for the HC job.

SH-SUU is irrelevant, why even bring them up in discussion?

 

[Siouxfan]

So what is the new mascot/nickname of UND?

I loathe NDSU and it's fans. Because they beat us in a '88 playoff game and because their internet posters are asses.

Why did Lennon leave? Sounds like he had a good gig and actually turned Sac State down for the HC job.

SH-SUU is irrelevant, why even bring them up in discussion?

Nickname announce later in the school year. Still Sioux for this year.

NDSU fans are incredibly arrogant and in-your-face: been like that forever. Seems like the whole school fan base has an inferiority complex, so they take on some kind of bully complex to compensate. Surprisingly, when you go to their games, the fans mainly sit on their hands because cheering debases their manhood, but easily anger at visiting fans (like UND ones). Bison fans are some of the best at propaganda and setting a narrative that is so distorted: especially with regard to UND. If you listen to them, UND will never amount to anything because hockey sucks all the finances: the opposite is true. Hockey raises millions of $'s for other sports at UND. Of course there are good NDSU fans ... like a couple of my brothers.!!

I would like to think UND is the opposite: boisterous about the play on the field but congenial off. The Al and Ralph get very very loud most games.

Lennon left IMHO seemingly because he didn't want to face the transition period with what was a cupboard without much talent remaining. SIU offered him twice the money, he didn't get along with the AD then (who was a jerk), and with SIU in the playoffs annually, he now has an opportunity to go FBS as part of his career. It would have killed his career for Lennon not to move.

What many people don't realize is that Dale Lennon's and UND's major foe at the DII level was Brian Kelly at Grand Valley (with short stops at CMU, Cincy, before Notre Dame). For years, Kelly and Lennon met in post-season (Kelly leading 3-2) and both were considered comparable football minds. Both were thought then to be coaches that could really go high someday.

 

[Green Cookie Monster]

Any inside preferences for a mascot?

 

[superhornet]

Sioux - Thanks for the clarification about NDSU-SDSU. When the XDSUs moved up, I was led to believe that THAT was THE rivalry and the intrastate rivalries were anything but. Glad to hear otherwise. Intrastate rivalries are always the best. Griz-Cat and Causeway prove that.

GCM - I agree that SUU is irrelevant. I just get fed up with their trying to insinuate their way into every conversation when NOBODY wants anything to do with them. Of course, if certain UNC fans are to be believed, Sac is irrelevant, too. Not that I buy into that, either....

 

[SDHornet]

Great input SF, however expanding the wall of a dome is a lot easier said than done. It will be no easy task for an expansion in any of the Dakota domes. I read on some posts somewhere (probably fcsfans) that Idaho got an invite to the WAC to please instate politics with a Boise State move. (Similar to UM not being allowed to move up without MSU.) Until last year (and unless Idaho can maintain success, I am going to say last year was a fluke) I would have the think the WAC won’t be too open to the idea of inviting another “little brother” into the mix.

And good stuff on XDSU, UXD issues. I tip my cap to SDSU as they are able to win and get to the playoffs with such poor facilities. Didn’t they just open up a new feildhouse last season? I also tip my cap to them because they are the only university in the Dakotas to play football outdoors…where it belongs.

 

[Siouxfan]

Any inside preferences for a mascot?

Roughriders (state nickname, but then Sioux State is also a state nickname.) has been suggested by anti-nickname alumni (like Phil Jackson of the Lakers).

Cavalry is also a popular name, even suggested by the most strident anti-Sioux nickname Sioux leader.

 

[Siouxfan]

Great input SF, however expanding the wall of a dome is a lot easier said than done. It will be no easy task for an expansion in any of the Dakota domes. I read on some posts somewhere (probably fcsfans) that Idaho got an invite to the WAC to please instate politics with a Boise State move. (Similar to UM not being allowed to move up without MSU.) Until last year (and unless Idaho can maintain success, I am going to say last year was a fluke) I would have the think the WAC won’t be too open to the idea of inviting another “little brother” into the mix.

And good stuff on XDSU, UXD issues. I tip my cap to SDSU as they are able to win and get to the playoffs with such poor facilities. Didn’t they just open up a new feildhouse last season? I also tip my cap to them because they are the only university in the Dakotas to play football outdoors…where it belongs.

What many people refuse to understand is that UND is definitely not the little brother in the mix. UND athletics attracts more than 300,000 paying fans a year, while NDSU has less than 150,000. UND has a bigger athletic budget than Montana, Idaho, NDSU and Sac State. UND has 7 DI national championships and more to come. Just last year UND had five Olympic medalists, and has had a number over the years even in sports like track and field. UND has a national TV contract with FCS to broadcast over 30 games a year in multiple sports. UND at one time had three coaches coaching simultaneously in the NBA (Phil Jackson, Bill Fitch, and Jimmie Rodgers). UND has had great names in the NFL over the years (Jim LeClair, Errol Mann, Dave Osborne) and currently has Jim Kleinsasser and Chris Kuper (starting OT for Denver). UND has winning records over every Dakota school in football and basketball.

NDSU was definitely the more aggressive school in moving to DI earlier, but they practically had to be because UND was taking over the state: UND was dominating NDSU in football, in Men's and women's basketball, in TV coverage, in radio coverage, playing Kansas in men's BB before 13,000 at the Ralph, and routinely playing Minnesota and Wisconsin as conference hockey opponents, selling out hockey for every match. NDSU took a risk in going to DI, as no conference wanted them until much later. The risk paid off handsomely for them. But UND had many other issues that NDSU didn't face (i.e. determining how a new arenas would affect budgets long term, paying for a BB/VB practice facility, and how a community devastated by a $1 billion in damages from a flood could help sponsor DI in all sports).

SDSU has done a great job with their football program, which at DII was incredibly mediocre. SDSU mostly cared about BB, so for the BB program to falter and it's football program to climb with the DI move is a surprise. Their FB coach Stiegelmeier is a class act and their program helps develop character. SDSU has a new football training center that opened just beyond their stadium endzone, which definitely helps. When the rest of the stadium stands are replaced, they may really have an awesome facility.

If you visit us in November, or a December playoff, would like to see your perspective on outdoor football then. :lol:

 

[SDHornet]

Canadian football teams manage the outdoors, although their season ends in late November at the latest. And I have a hard time buying into any of the Dakota schools out bidding the traditional FCS power schools to host a home playoff game so as of now (obviously this can change) a playoff game in the Dakotas is a long shot. But I think a game in the elements would be entertaining. Man has invented a little concoction that is used to battle the cold, it’s called alcohol. :lol:

 

[Siouxfan]

Canadian football teams manage the outdoors, although their season ends in late November at the latest. And I have a hard time buying into any of the Dakota schools out bidding the traditional FCS power schools to host a home playoff game so as of now (obviously this can change) a playoff game in the Dakotas is a long shot. But I think a game in the elements would be entertaining. Man has invented a little concoction that is used to battle the cold, it’s called alcohol. :lol:

IF NDSU ever qualifies for the post-season FCS playoffs, you better believe that they will be outbidding practically anyone - even if they lose money - for the rights to host. Same would be true to UND. Both schools would sell out and both could probably charge premium pricing (if that's OK to do with NCAA games.) NDSU has never ever hosted a playoff game in their dome - even going back the 15 years in DII. It's a total embarassment to their program.

Meanwhile, UND has probably hosted 15 playoff games in the same time frame, mostly in our dome. Games would sell out normally (12,000 in seats, plus 1500 in boxes and SRO) if the DII opponent was known to be good.

SDSU would have a difficult time getting a bid precisely because they play outside and would have difficulty selling tickets. SDSU also charges just a few bucks for a ticket, so their fans get ticker shock at playoff prices. Fans older than 50 and families with younger kids aren't going to sit out in the Dakota cold, with the wind blowing. The cold in Montana does not compare whatsoever to the cold on the Prairie. Montana is higher, drier, less windy (at least in Missoula): -20 there is a piece of cake and is basically sweater weather. SDSU seemingly only draws when they have festival times (Hobo Days, Beef Bowl, Pork Bowl - which kind of have county fair atmospheres - SDSU isn't exactly sophisticated, but are very much down to earth) or when they play another Dakota school - and then much of the fans are visiting. If a game at SDSU is cold or wet or pheasant season is open, attendance drops llike a rock. That is not nearly as true at North Dakota schools.