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What IS Discipline ?

scooter1

scooter1

Active member
A lot of talk here (and other forums throughout the Big Sky) concerning the lack of discipline on the field with Portland State's football program. This is not a discussion that began with Nigel's tenure, because it was also an issue under Glanville as well. Coach Burton has emphatically expressed his feeling that it is not a discipline issue; perhaps we can read into this formulation that it is a decision making process that is ongoing, developing, and maturing.

When I personally hear "discipline problem" I just surmise out of control, self absorbed, narcissistic kids with little respect for the game or others. This is not (in my opinion) what we are witnessing with these young men. The penalties being administered have not been shown to be raw, uncontrolled aggression, but have occurred within the context of the game. I have myself witnessed several "late hit" penalties when it was obvious that the player accused of the infraction was in fact trying to pull back, but it was too late. Now there's no question that discipline comes into play here, recognizing in a split second what action to take, but how exactly does a coaching staff direct these outcomes without losing the "attacking" mentality necessary for defense? Is it incumbent upon the players in question to "think through" their processes rather than utilize instinct?

Regardless of how we define discipline, or lack thereof, this football team will need to find it's stride going forward without losing momentum that penalties invariably exact on the outcome.
 
Discipline can be looked at in many ways. I don't believe we have a team that is purposefully trying to lose games due to penalties but on the other hand Montana and CP were very hard nosed aggressive teams that had far fewer penalties. We average 95 plus yards in penalties a game so there is something there regardless if you want to make it "bad calls" or 'being aggressive".

Why is it that we are by far the most penalized team? is it a conspiracy against us that the refs make so many bad calls? Is it not understanding the rules of the game? is it not understanding how penalties kill drives, turn field goals into touchdowns, turned stalled drives into long drives?

I don't know what to tell you but since I was a young kid playing football teams with a lot of penalties and that committed penalties at the wrong times during games have always been called teams that lack discipline. Call it what you want to call it but we have to have enough control during a game to stop being the most penalized team in Big Sky Football or we wont win many games.
 
I think conspiracy is too strong of a word. However, once a team gets a reputation, it becomes easier for the refs to pull a flag....let's say PSU doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

We saw it with that Trailblazers several years ago too.

Unfortunately, it will take more time to correct this reputation than most of these kids have eligibility.

There was plenty of holding, blocks in the back etc in Montana.....by the Griz. Reputation is everything.
 
Our typecast is that we commit penalties. This is nothing new, as it's been going on since the Walsh days.

Excuse?

No.

We're going to get the calls against us. That's just the way it is. Hell, there's a hold on every play.

The discipline penalties are an issue.

The illegal shifts, delay of game, after the play personal fouls, illegal block, etc.

Penalties where a defensive guy jumps on a good hard count when the crowd is loud, I can understand that. Holding a receiver if you're beat, I get that as well. These aren't the issue.

Clean up the discipline penalties.
 
I think getting flagged immediately after a fumble for ripping off an opponents helmet might be the opposite of discipline.
 
Burton lost this team by lying to players, not being fair to all players and constantly berating some guys and not others. He has benched kids because he doesn't like what they have to say, not given kids like Kasey Kloss a scholarship and literally told him it's because he is from Lake Oswego and doesn't need the money.

When you don't treat kids with respect and honor what they are doing for you they really don't care much about you as a coach. I've heard from several kids that were suppose to be turning the team around by now that Burton and Hill constantly lie and say very inappropriate things to kids starting and bench. They think this coaching staff is a joke.

I heard at least 6 to 10 kids from the 2012 class are asking for their release as soon as this season ends. They all loved football but say at this point with this staff it is the worst thing in their life. Some are trying to transfer to other big sky schools and some are just done with it. They say Burton and staff sucked the joy of football from their life.
 
goviksgo said:
not giv[ing] kids like Kasey [C]loss a scholarship and literally told him it's because he is from Lake Oswego and doesn't need the money. ... They think this coaching staff is a joke. ... They say Burton and staff sucked the joy of football from their life.
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Why do I find this hard to believe?! If the coaching staff loses players at the end of the year, I would likely find some credence in what you say, but this sounds way over-the-top. Is the Law Office of Burton, Barnum & Hill here to destroy the PSU football program, or are they here to build it? Why would David Hersh et al. invest their time and effort into promoting the program? Do they expect or want it to be a loser? Is this a ruse, do they want to take it down too? Is Bill Schonely, the original voice of the Trailblazers at age 84, sincere about being "proud to be a Viking," or is he just part of an acting troupe pretending to support it when, actually, he wants to take it down too?

I think it makes sense that Hersh et al. and Schonely must see something of significant value in Torre Chisholm and Nigel Burton's plan to want to get on board now even while the Viks have still to become winners. They believe in something behind the scenes to which the insiders are privvy, but not those of us on the outside. What could this be?

If Burton and company retain their players at the end of the season, then something good must very likely be cooking. If a lot leave as you say, then you may certainly have something. I believe the table is nearly set, though, and the next three seasons will be a telling time. Despite any rumors, I don't believe the program is about to fall apart. Rather, I believe we are on the doorstep of a particularly good era. Many signals indicate team unification as the remaining factor yet to be put in place. Right now, we're a loosely-knit team of disparate quality players. The goal is to become tightly-knit, well-oiled team that makes discipline a very positive word.
 
Believe what you want to believe but the law firms and Torre and Burton will have nothing to say to these kids after the season. Once someone sucks the joy of football from your life you have to change venues or stop playing. Football is way to hard in college for it to become the worst part of your life.

The proof will be next season when they are stepping out onto the field missing a lot of familiar names. The kids didn't dream of this when they started out it has been thrust upon them.

How do you think they felt when their coaches almost came to blows at the SUU game? When there is dissention between their own coaches how can the team ever come back together.
 
How are you privvy to this information concerning dissent among the players? How did you arrive at this conclusion? With whom did you speak? Is there another group of coaches waiting-in-the-wings to take over this program?
 
goviksgo said:
Believe what you want to believe but the law firms and Torre and Burton will have nothing to say to these kids after the season. Once someone sucks the joy of football from your life you have to change venues or stop playing. Football is way to hard in college for it to become the worst part of your life.

The proof will be next season when they are stepping out onto the field missing a lot of familiar names. The kids didn't dream of this when they started out it has been thrust upon them.

How do you think they felt when their coaches almost came to blows at the SUU game? When there is dissention between their own coaches how can the team ever come back together.
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As a proud father of a Viking player I can attest that "the joy of football" has not been sucked from his life. Are things going as well as we would have hoped or anticipated? Obviously not!

I have nothing but positive things to say about the Portland State coaching staff. The issue with the coaches almost coming to blows at the SUU game has been squashed. The coaches are just as competitive as the players and tempers flare. I don't believe nor does my son (a player) believe there is dessention among the ranks.

If there are players that are wishing to leave the program it is not because of the coaches but, because of there own character. This program is heading in the right direction and if there is a player that doesn't want to head that direction we are probably better without them.

You speak as if you have inside knowledge. I'm very curious where you are getting your information.

Go VIKS
 
Goviksgo is correct about what's going on but that isn't the important part. What it shows is a divided team with some players buying in and some deeply unhappy. To some extent there are always some players that don't buy in, but when that number reaches critical mass, the unity needed to win is gone.

Yes, NB can be abrasive. Who here wouldn't be on the edge if this was his/her career at stake? Should he and JH have handled it apart from the players, sure, but it happens. Has there ever been a family that didn't blow up at each other, ever? Mom and Dad make up, apologize to the kids for letting them witness it and move on. I think that's happened here so It shouldn't be a huge deal.

When teams win, almost everyone is happy and football is the best part of a kids life. Players HATE losing or they wouldn't be playing at this level. After a while the frustration results in the blame game. If we are ever going to rebuild this team, that needs to stop. It's a downward spiral that we must reverse. It takes a lot of time and energy ( and a little luck IMO) to halt the momentum and start the upward spiral. How about this, let's wait until the season is over before we conduct the post mortem.
 
My point is easy to understand if you'd ever played sports at a high level. The most important job a coach has is that he puts his team in a position to win and he gets buy in on his philosophy from the team. The kids need leadership that is solid. You bring up "what family doesn't have blow ups" well the truth of the matter is that when parents blow up and fight all the time the result is usually they raise kids that have many problems. When you come from a family that has integrity and is honest and tries to keep the frustrations they have away from their kids they usually raise better children.

These kids are being paid to play football but the coaches are being paid to be coaches and leaders. Leading by example is what they chose to do in life. It can't be do as I say not as I do. After seeing that on the sideline in Utah I no longer wonder why we have so many personal fouls called against us in games. I also have no doubt why we have players that don't buy in to the coaches philosophy.

Come on man, you've got to be kidding me or blind to the reality of what is going on between coaches and of course between players. When does leadership not come from the top down? Are you living in a different world?

I want to love PSU and I want to love this coaching staff and team but the coaching staff, their decisions and their behavior doesn't help me get there.
 
I live in the same world obviously and although my eyes aren't what they used to be, I'm not yet blind. I get what you are saying and if you read what I said you'd see I agree on a lot of it. I just think we should wait until the season is over before we start talking about a coaching change b/c in this world it's not going to happen until at least then anyway. Griping now just makes things worse.
 
PSUdad said:
goviksgo said:
Believe what you want to believe but the law firms and Torre and Burton will have nothing to say to these kids after the season. Once someone sucks the joy of football from your life you have to change venues or stop playing. Football is way to hard in college for it to become the worst part of your life.

The proof will be next season when they are stepping out onto the field missing a lot of familiar names. The kids didn't dream of this when they started out it has been thrust upon them.

How do you think they felt when their coaches almost came to blows at the SUU game? When there is dissention between their own coaches how can the team ever come back together.
Click to expand...


As a proud father of a Viking player I can attest that "the joy of football" has not been sucked from his life. Are things going as well as we would have hoped or anticipated? Obviously not!

I have nothing but positive things to say about the Portland State coaching staff. The issue with the coaches almost coming to blows at the SUU game has been squashed. The coaches are just as competitive as the players and tempers flare. I don't believe nor does my son (a player) believe there is dessention among the ranks.

If there are players that are wishing to leave the program it is not because of the coaches but, because of there own character. This program is heading in the right direction and if there is a player that doesn't want to head that direction we are probably better without them.

You speak as if you have inside knowledge. I'm very curious where you are getting your information.

Go VIKS
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Hey PSUdad.

I find it neat when the parents of our student athletes take interest in the message board.

We all get fired up on here over the wins and losses, but win, lose, or draw, tell your son good and healthy rest of the season.

Go Viks!
 
Any how does anyone know if Coach Hill has returned to the team or if the problems with this staff continue? Has anyone heard what is going on with the QB situation? Perhaps PSUDAD can share some real wisdom or inside information since Little Johnny and the coach are so tight?
 
This is not appropriate banter. Please show due respect to the parents of our players. If a parent's son is having a positive experience, then this is good and vital information to bring in too.

I find the spirit of your last post entirely divisive and not constructive to the round table discussion. I really think you owe him an apologetic rewrite.
 
I'm sorry you feel that way. I took offense to PSUDAD stating if a kid chose to leave, as Zach Whalen did today, there was something lacking in Zach's character. Zach's character isn't in question at all. he left because the coaches lack character and made so many off handed comments to him of a personal nature he couldn't stand being around them anymore.
 
Zach Whalen leaving is serious. Maybe there needs to be an audit of this program? Perhaps the president or AD needs to commission a third party investigation into the football operations and see what is going on.

An audit is always useful.
 
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