Arguing with Sacstateman about elevation

[sacstateman]

OK, I'm not down playing their abilities but could you name ONE school in either UCLA or Duke's conferences that are at 2000ft altitude or above????? Why do you think the US Olympic teams train in Colorado Springs??? The answer is to maximize their training time by training at altitude. If you have ever gone into the mountains from your altitude to about 10000 ft you realize there are differences in your bodies ability to attain oxygen in an elevated environment. I am saying it is a definite disadvantage to sea level teams to play altitude acclimated teams on the road. Katz will never use that as an excuse, I can guarantee that. I know it is a concern of his every time they play at altitude because he has to adjust his substitution patterns to try to keep players rested. I still think we can win our share but our achilles heel will be ALTITUDE. Thank you

 

[catscratched]

Studies have shown the effect of exertion at a substantially higher altitude is minimal the first and second day at altitude. It's the third and fourth days that start to tell on you. It may be true that some athletes may need a little more rest to perform at a high level. However, it's mostly psychological. If they think it's a big deal, it probably will be. :yikes:

 

[SWWeatherCat]

Yeah, can't pin altitude as a key factor for road success. It makes road play more difficult, no doubt, but I don't buy that altitude alone swings many wins-losses. I'm certainly not the sharpest crayon in the box, but why wouldn't high-altitude teams traveling to low-altitude sites be a similar advantage to the disadvantage of the low-altitude teams traveling to high-altitude sites? If altitude was such a huge factor, then the JAZZ and Nuggets would have stellar NBA histories, nearly unbeatable at home. NAU and Air Force, to name a few, would also be high-altitude powers. Yeah, not buying it.

 

[sacstateman]

A simple google search of "Effects of Altitude on atletic performance" will show you that there is an effect and it is not psychological. I would love to read the studies catscratched claims but I can't find anything that says the first 2 days have minimal effects. To the contrary everything I read says the effect is immediate and it takes at least 7 days to start to acclimate. I'm sorry I brought it up but the facts are the facts.

 

[Webergrad02]

Yeah, can't pin altitude as a key factor for road success. It makes road play more difficult, no doubt, but I don't buy that altitude alone swings many wins-losses.

Bingo. It has a minor effect, but Sac's problems have been much greater than altitude. Maybe Olds our resident marathon runner can chime in. In running long distances, training at altitude helps you. That's why our Olympic marathoners train at Mammoth Lakes CA. But playing a basketball game isn't running a marathon. The hoop is still 10 feet off the floor in NAU. The free throw line is the same distant to the hoop in Ogden. I would say the horse crap smell in Greeley would effect me more than the altitude.

 

[LarrytheFarmer]

Yeah, can't pin altitude as a key factor for road success. It makes road play more difficult, no doubt, but I don't buy that altitude alone swings many wins-losses.

Bingo. It has a minor effect, but Sac's problems have been much greater than altitude. Maybe Olds our resident marathon runner can chime in. In running long distances, training at altitude helps you. That's why our Olympic marathoners train at Mammoth Lakes CA. But playing a basketball game isn't running a marathon. The hoop is still 10 feet off the floor in NAU. The free throw line is the same distant to the hoop in Ogden. I would say the horse crap smell in Greeley would effect me more than the altitude.

Not to nit pick here, but its actually a beef yard/slaughter house. No horses were killed in the making of that smell. :mrgreen:

 

[oldrunner]

I live at about 4,500 ft and do most of my running there or lower. From time to time, I go up in the mountains and run at 8,500 to 9,000 ft. I don't see a big difference. I ran a race up in Idaho, at about 10,000 ft and that was one of the best races of my life. There is a physical effect, but it is minimal.

 

[ZonaCat]

OK, I'm not down playing their abilities but could you name ONE school in either UCLA or Duke's conferences that are at 2000ft altitude or above????? Why do you think the US Olympic teams train in Colorado Springs??? The answer is to maximize their training time by training at altitude. If you have ever gone into the mountains from your altitude to about 10000 ft you realize there are differences in your bodies ability to attain oxygen in an elevated environment. I am saying it is a definite disadvantage to sea level teams to play altitude acclimated teams on the road. Katz will never use that as an excuse, I can guarantee that. I know it is a concern of his every time they play at altitude because he has to adjust his substitution patterns to try to keep players rested. I still think we can win our share but our achilles heel will be ALTITUDE. Thank you

Ding! Ding! Ding! I got four in UCLA's Conf. sacstateman. Washington St - 2,352 feet, Univ of Utah - 4,657 feet, Univ of Colorado - 5,430, Univ of Arizona - 2,389 feet. Do I get a prize? Couldn't resist, my Dad was a Geography teacher...

In any case, altitude does have an effect. It probably differs from player to player and the amount that is physiological vs psychological probably varies also. But I know when players walk into the Walkup Skydome at NAU and they have "Elevation 7000 Feet" posted everywhere it at least has to be in the back of players minds.

 

[oldrunner]

That is probably why Weber does so well there. We know it's BS. :lol: :lol:

 

[sacstateman]

OK, I'm not down playing their abilities but could you name ONE school in either UCLA or Duke's conferences that are at 2000ft altitude or above????? Why do you think the US Olympic teams train in Colorado Springs??? The answer is to maximize their training time by training at altitude. If you have ever gone into the mountains from your altitude to about 10000 ft you realize there are differences in your bodies ability to attain oxygen in an elevated environment. I am saying it is a definite disadvantage to sea level teams to play altitude acclimated teams on the road. Katz will never use that as an excuse, I can guarantee that. I know it is a concern of his every time they play at altitude because he has to adjust his substitution patterns to try to keep players rested. I still think we can win our share but our achilles heel will be ALTITUDE. Thank you

Ding! Ding! Ding! I got four in UCLA's Conf. sacstateman. Washington St - 2,352 feet, Univ of Utah - 4,657 feet, Univ of Colorado - 5,430, Univ of Arizona - 2,389 feet. Do I get a prize? Couldn't resist, my Dad was a Geography teacher...

In any case, altitude does have an effect. It probably differs from player to player and the amount that is physiological vs psychological probably varies also. But I know when players walk into the Walkup Skydome at NAU and they have "Elevation 7000 Feet" posted everywhere it at least has to be in the back of players minds.

Nice try but when Wooden was coach Utah, Colorado and Arizona were not in the Pac 8.....ding ding ding DONG....Washington State was but not quite in UCLA's class...BTW what is UCLA's record against Utah, Colorado and Arizona on the road since they have been in the league...vs Utah 1-1, 3 pt win, vs Colo 2-0, 3 pt win, vs Arizona 2-10 (couldn't find all the scores for Arizona games) seems to show a drop-off in performance when playing away from sea level (they are 110-15 against Washington St. all time home and away). So you win.....you found one(WSU).

 

[WSUProf]

Altitude definitely makes a difference. Not just for schools coming up to Weber, or NAU or SUU ..., but for those schools going down to sea level. Yes the basket is still 10 ft high. But running the floor for 40 minutes is not the same if you live at sea level and then go play at 4500', or the reverse.
The NCAA puts a special region together for cross country that includes all schools at 3000 or above.

 

[sacstateman]

Altitude definitely makes a difference. Not just for schools coming up to Weber, or NAU or SUU ..., but for those schools going down to sea level. Yes the basket is still 10 ft high. But running the floor for 40 minutes is not the same if you live at sea level and then go play at 4500', or the reverse.
The NCAA puts a special region together for cross country that includes all schools at 3000 or above.

THANK YOU PROF

 

[catscratched]

here you go.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00345377.1979.10615662#.VFEDLih6GEY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[sapokama]

That article is 35 yrs old. It's unlikely to be relevant anymore. It is well known in medicine that higher altitudes induce a higher hematocrit and hemoglobin (more red blood cells in the body) or what is referred to as a altitude induced polycythemia. The more red blood cells you have, the higher oxygen carrying capacity you have so you can deliver more oxygen to your organs. This allows you to run or bike at a higher level for longer distances. That's why people like Lance Armstrong would have a blood transfusion or epo. (a drug to stimulate red blood cell production) before races. It's also why the cyclists have their Hemoglobin and Hematocrit measured by the governing bodies for their sport.

Regardless, until Sacramento State has a winning season in D1 basketball, I don't really think this argument is valid for them. Their problem is not the altitude, it's that they have sucked for a long time.

 

[n.ogdencat]

That article is 35 yrs old. It's unlikely to be relevant anymore. It is well known in medicine that higher altitudes induce a higher hematocrit and hemoglobin (more red blood cells in the body) or what is referred to as a altitude induced polycythemia. The more red blood cells you have, the higher oxygen carrying capacity you have so you can deliver more oxygen to your organs. This allows you to run or bike at a higher level for longer distances. That's why people like Lance Armstrong would have a blood transfusion or epo. (a drug to stimulate red blood cell production) before races. It's also why the cyclists have their Hemoglobin and Hematocrit measured by the governing bodies for their sport.

Regardless, until Sacramento State has a winning season in D1 basketball, I don't really think this argument is valid for them. Their problem is not the altitude, it's that they have sucked for a long time.

NICE!! My question would be, how much does altitude affect an athlete, in high aerobic condition, immediately? Yes, training at altitude does provide an athlete with advantage in all aerobic oriented competition, which I would argue basketball should be included in. Nevertheless, does it adversely affect an athlete who visits for less than 48 hours? In the short run, does an altitude change affect a highly trained athlete so negatively that they do not perform at the same level as to give an overwhelming advantage to the athlete trained at the current altitude? Yes, there is an advantage to training at altitude. That has to be admitted, but to say an altitude adjustment is the reasoning for consistently poor performance by one program is spurious. Weber has played extremely well in Flagstaff which is 3,000'+ higher than Ogden Utah. I believe Weber owns the series record against NAU in Flagstaff. But, begrudgingly Weber does train at 4500' rather than at 30'.

 

[oldrunner]

:+1: :+1:

Excuses are like arm pits. Everybody has a couple of them, but they all stink.

I don't know who originally said that, but it's true.

Winning? I'll quote Nike on this one; "Just Do It".

 

[Webergrad02]

In 2010, I ran through Death Valley (282 feet below sea level). I trained at high altitude I also tried to simulate the high heat. (treadmill in the hot garage). It was August 11th and 110 degrees outside. Even though my body was having a hard time keeping cool my lungs felt fantastic the whole way. When I ran races at low elevation I always had to make sure I didn't go out too fast because my lung capacity felt improved. I do think running long distances is a little different than basketball. I think it matters, but not as much as sucking for 30 years.

 

[sapokama]

NICE!! My question would be, how much does altitude affect an athlete, in high aerobic condition, immediately? Yes, training at altitude does provide an athlete with advantage in all aerobic oriented competition, which I would argue basketball should be included in. Nevertheless, does it adversely affect an athlete who visits for less than 48 hours? In the short run, does an altitude change affect a highly trained athlete so negatively that they do not perform at the same level as to give an overwhelming advantage to the athlete trained at the current altitude? Yes, there is an advantage to training at altitude. That has to be admitted, but to say an altitude adjustment is the reasoning for consistently poor performance by one program is spurious. Weber has played extremely well in Flagstaff which is 3,000'+ higher than Ogden Utah. I believe Weber owns the series record against NAU in Flagstaff. But, begrudgingly Weber does train at 4500' rather than at 30'.

I don't know a lot about the immediate affects of altitude on athletes, but I did find this website that talks about it:

http://www.altitudemedicine.org/index.php/altitude-medicine/athletes-and-altitude" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It basically says that the body's ability to extract oxygen from the air and deliver it to the body tissue begins to be affected at 5000ft. For every 1000ft over 5000ft, there is a 3% decrease in the body's ability to complete this task. So while playing at No Arizona, the players at Sac State would extracting oxygen from the air and delivering it to the body tissue at 94% of normal. Since D1 players are so well conditioned and understand how their body should react, I would assume that over the course of a basketball game this would make a player feel more winded. Now if most normal people were playing basketball in Flagstaff and complained of feeling winded due to the altitude, you would most likely be due to being out of shape.

I found a couple of sources that stated that 5000ft was when altitude started to have an effect. It is possible that the altitude is more psychological then physical these players when they play at somewhere like Weber; however, that can often have as much if not more of an impact.

 

[n.ogdencat]

NICE!! My question would be, how much does altitude affect an athlete, in high aerobic condition, immediately? Yes, training at altitude does provide an athlete with advantage in all aerobic oriented competition, which I would argue basketball should be included in. Nevertheless, does it adversely affect an athlete who visits for less than 48 hours? In the short run, does an altitude change affect a highly trained athlete so negatively that they do not perform at the same level as to give an overwhelming advantage to the athlete trained at the current altitude? Yes, there is an advantage to training at altitude. That has to be admitted, but to say an altitude adjustment is the reasoning for consistently poor performance by one program is spurious. Weber has played extremely well in Flagstaff which is 3,000'+ higher than Ogden Utah. I believe Weber owns the series record against NAU in Flagstaff. But, begrudgingly Weber does train at 4500' rather than at 30'.

I don't know a lot about the immediate affects of altitude on athletes, but I did find this website that talks about it:

http://www.altitudemedicine.org/index.php/altitude-medicine/athletes-and-altitude" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It basically says that the body's ability to extract oxygen from the air and deliver it to the body tissue begins to be affected at 5000ft. For every 1000ft over 5000ft, there is a 3% decrease in the body's ability to complete this task. So while playing at No Arizona, the players at Sac State would extracting oxygen from the air and delivering it to the body tissue at 94% of normal. Since D1 players are so well conditioned and understand how their body should react, I would assume that over the course of a basketball game this would make a player feel more winded. Now if most normal people were playing basketball in Flagstaff and complained of feeling winded due to the altitude, you would most likely be due to being out of shape.

I found a couple of sources that stated that 5000ft was when altitude started to have an effect. It is possible that the altitude is more psychological then physical these players when they play at somewhere like Weber; however, that can often have as much if not more of an impact.

Once again, nice find. I like this discussion. Look at what we are learning. :thumb: However, in essence, a player should only be affected by altitude only after 5000'. Weber State's Dee Events Center, I believe, is around 4850'. So, if a player is coming from Sac, there shouldn't be much difference to how they train at 30' to playing a basketball game at 4850'. But there is a difference for an athlete making the jump from 4850' to 7200'? So logically, the only program in the Sky that has an extreme altitude advantage would be Northern Arizona. Weber State's athletes have to go through more extremes traveling to NAU than a Sac State athlete would traveling to Ogden. For them, that jump isn't really a difference, since they haven't broken the 5000' barrier, thus the argument that altitude has been a major cause behind Sac State's woes, is bunk, except when visiting NAU? Interesting stuff. This is awesome!!

 

[LarrytheFarmer]

Shouldn't this thread be renamed "Does altitude affect ones ability to run or play sports?" I would say this conversation went WAY off the rails from the intended topic. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: