Arguing with Sacstateman about elevation

[sacstateman]

On Google Earth The Dee is at 4800 ft. Close enough for some effect. I agree we have sucked up to now but I think it has been shown that there is an effect at altitude. If 2 teams are close in ability then the altitude factor may come into play. I spoke to Dylan Garrity about this subject and he told me that Flagstaff is much worse than Ogden, but he can feel the difference in the Dee too. Any way this has been a good discussion and I appreciate the input even when it doesn't agree with me.

 

[oldrunner]

I think that SUU also sits at about 7,000 ft. So SUU and NAU should be dominating the conf.

Actually, NAU does seem to dominate in Cross Country.

In basketball, the altitude thing hasn't seemed to matter much over the years. Likewise for football.

Talent and coaching wins basketball championships. :nod: :nod:

 

[n.ogdencat]

Just for kicks, elevation of the 12 Big Sky Cities:

Bozeman: 4820'
Cedar City: 5840'
Cheney: 2352'
Flagstaff: 7000'
Grand Forks: 843'
Greely: 4658'
Missoula: 4768'
Moscow: 2579'
Ogden: 4800' (By the Dee)
Pocatello: 4462
Portland: 1073' (By PSU)
Sacramento: 35'

 

[Webergrad02]

I didn't realize there are 7 arenas around or above 4500 feet. More than half of the conference is close to that 5,000 foot threshold.

It is interesting to see how the body reacts above 14,000 feet. I have climbed Mt Whitney (14,500 feet) twice. Both times, I noticed that everyones pace comes to a complete crawl above 14,000 feet.

 

[SWWeatherCat]

I'm not buying the 5000' threshold as a point where the affects of altitude can be felt. I have a boy who recently returned from a mission to South Texas. He was (and is) in a daily habit of running first thing in the morning. After spending two years at or near sea-level, the first morning home he goes for his run and is back shortly panting like a dog, saying he can't breath. It took a week plus before he started feeling back to normal.

"Even moderate altitudes can have a significant effect on athletic performance. "
http://www.altitude.org/altitude_training.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still, I don't believe you can hang W/L success on altitude since it's a constant that teams deal with. As I said before, no doubt it will add to the difficulty of travel but can be manged as anything else. If it couldn't, the JAZZ and Nuggets would have an advantage that would equate to many more wins than either has had and Air Force and NAU would dominate.

 

[LarrytheFarmer]

So IF altitude plays such a BIG impact, then why does U of Wyoming Suck so damn bad? They have the highest elevation of ANY campus in the USA.

 

[sacstateman]

You guys keep making my argument and then disagree with yourself......if the Jazz and Nuggets ever had the talent to take advantage of the altitude they would of had more wins but I've heard NBA teams for years talking about the toughest back to back is when the second game is in Denver. No matter if your at altitude or not you have to have talent. This year I think our talent is at a level that we can compete but at a slight disadvantage because of the altitude. SWWeatherCat, if your own son tells you that he can't breathe when first back from sea level then it has to have the same effect on other athletes as well. Basketball, soccer, cross country more than baseball, softball, and other less aerobic sports. It doesn't show as much in football because you guys haven't had much of a football team in quite a while.

 

[sacstateman]

So IF altitude plays such a BIG impact, then why does U of Wyoming Suck so damn bad? They have the highest elevation of ANY campus in the USA.

How would you like to try to recruit to Laramie???

 

[SWeberCat02]

I would think that travel distance would have as big of, if not bigger, effect on teams, although I don't think either have significant impacts. I wonder what the total distance traveled is for each team. Also modes of travel could have an effect. I would think UND and Sac St would travel farther than any other school.

 

[weberwildcat]

you need to blood dope.

this altitude problem has been well known to me for many years. as a student i was the #1 fan on the front row...long before maddawg and bigpapa were born, and obviously many years after talhad "graduated" so to speak...

i had a tough time cheering on the front row and would be fatigued by halftime so i would go chug a few dews in the concourse while the others would try and gag down what the concessions stands would call coke. all these years later its an interesting phenomenon that the soda fountain still tastes like complete crap in the dee...

i was a great traveling fan and my secret was blood doping. so i would store pints of my blood in my college pad. i would take a cup or so after each home win. wanted to make sure i was only saving the good stuff. i am not superstitious...but i am a little stitious. then when i would get to road games like sac state, psu and eastern i would insert the high elevation blood, boosting the number of red blood cells in my bloodstream in order to enhance my cheering experience which always gave wsu the needed advantage.

i am not the most ethical fan but i do what ever it takes to help my team win so long as i do not break US law.

 

[LarrytheFarmer]

So IF altitude plays such a BIG impact, then why does U of Wyoming Suck so damn bad? They have the highest elevation of ANY campus in the USA.

How would you like to try to recruit to Laramie???

Good point, I guess that explains why ISU usually sucks so bad in everything. Can you imagine the horror of having to pick between Laramie and Pocatello? hno:

 

[WeberCompliance]

FWIW, I believe Paul Pilkington (head XC coach, former professional distance runner) told me that 4,000 feet is about the threshold for where it makes a difference (at least in distance running). He's mentioned to me that Appalachian State, which is at about 3,300 feet, isn't high enough to get the advantages of training at altitude.

 

[weberwildcat]

i live at exactly 56 ft above sea level. i train at 0-56 feet during the week. on the weekend i will go on rides up to 2,000 feet and above. at these high altitudes i can't tell a difference. i would like to go pro but im too big, old, slow, scared and unskilled.

if i had a time machine i could change it all as well i could dress like a griz and throw my drink onto the court just before the ball gets passed in to frankysession at mid court that time way back...

 

[WSUProf]

As many on this thread have already stated -- altitude matters. But training and living at altitude doesn't give me talent. Do the low-land schools suffer having to come play at higher elevations? Sure.
But as someone mentioned earlier, travel impacts performance, too. I remember the old days of the Sac St - NAU pairing that schools would have to navigate on a Thurs-Sat (and even for at least one year on a Friday - Sat. - insane). With WSU being paired with ISU it means that teams coming in don't have to travel much, once they've made it to the area. Compare that with having to deal with the UNC - UND travel nightmare.

I think the moral of all of this is: life ain't fair. But talent and hard work can still overcome.

 

[SWWeatherCat]

I didn't realize there are 7 arenas around or above 4500 feet. More than half of the conference is close to that 5,000 foot threshold.

It is interesting to see how the body reacts above 14,000 feet. I have climbed Mt Whitney (14,500 feet) twice. Both times, I noticed that everyones pace comes to a complete crawl above 14,000 feet.

I've done a lot of high point hiking and, too, have climbed Whitney twice. I know what you're saying with the 14K mark, it doesn't help any that you're dealing with all those switchbacks as you're transitioning to the 14K level. As I've gotten older (fatter/more outta shape) I start to really feel the affects around 13K and it makes a huge difference if you can get to an intermediate altitude (Whitney Portal in this case) and acclimate for a day or two vs fighting the entire altitude change in a relatively short time.

The first time I did Whitney, we acclimated at Whitney Portal (around 9K) for two days, both days we hiked about 2 miles up the trail. Although I did significantly feel the 14K, I did fine. The second time I did it, we got there (Lone Pine, CA @ about 4K) late, slept about 5 hours, and hiked. That time, I started feeling the affects of altitude sickness (headaches, shortness of breath, dizzy, etc.)

Not that basketball would be close to being the same but it still makes sense that if the athletes are in the "high altitude" location even a day before the game, as is usually the case, the affects will be significantly lessened from the acclimatization.

 

[sacstateman]

LOL......You can't believe what a good time I'm having.....I love Larry's comment and Sir Volo sounds like he might be fun to hang with for a LITTLE while.....THIS HAS BEEN GREAT!!!! It's much more fun when we keep it light..

 

[SWWeatherCat]

"This year I think our talent is at a level that we can compete but at a slight disadvantage because of the altitude."

I'm not going to disagree that altitude can be a slight advantage or disadvantage.

"SWWeatherCat, if your own son tells you that he can't breathe when first back from sea level then it has to have the same effect on other athletes as well."

I'm not going to compare a short morning run with a high-level athlete. His experience was without much acclimatization too. I guess Sac needs to spring for an extra day in town to acclimate. Additionally, they might want to look into a practice facility in Placerville so they can compete in the Big (High) Sky.

 

[oldrunner]

sacstatesman;

Going to a higher altitude to play one game will have a small effect on a highly trained athlete. It's the game that is two days later that is the real problem.

I have watched athletes come in on visits from Texas and California. The first day that they are here, they are flying around the court for hours and don't seem to notice anything different from home. When those same kids enroll in the fall, by the second or third day on campus, they are gasping for air on their workouts. Give them another week or so and they are just fine.

On a two game roady, at high altitude like NAU and SUU, The second game will be the most fatiguing. That is my experience.

 

[sacstateman]

On second thought.....Sir Velo, you are welcome at my place anytime.....I'm still drying my eyes from laughing so hard over your "blood doping" post....man did this ever get out of hand!!!!

 

[n.ogdencat]

So IF altitude plays such a BIG impact, then why does U of Wyoming Suck so damn bad? They have the highest elevation of ANY campus in the USA.

I think the biggest issue with Wyoming, after Laramie, is when a recruit sees the coeds. They enter their hotel room to find sheep waiting for them. That would scare any recruit away. Only Nathan Sobey liked it.