so...

[spartan]

has the team quit?

 

[up for the challenge]

I thought you were a die hard? We never quit, we are just not very good on defense.

 

[PBP]

I still don't think they've quit based on my dealings with them but it has to be awfully tough mentally to get ready to play when you are being handed your rear end every week.

PBP

 

[biobengal]

I hope not... but could you blame them? You couldn't script a worse Sophomore year for Kramer.

 

[Bengal]

Maybe, maybe not does it really matter... Next season will likely not be a significant improvement. We will recruit more 'A' student freshman with D2 talent and get crushed by every team in the big sky. At this point I don't think that three more seasons will make a significant difference - I watched our defense read the play correctly and then simply get out run to the end zone. You can't fix the problems we have in one season or even two. Bringing in more freshman will do nothing for us. Our approach to the game exacerbates our weaknesses. Add the problems we already have with the two a year body bag games and you have a recipe for never getting out of the hole.


I guess the one positive point is when you are a dumpster fire the only way to go is up.

 

[notabengalalum]

Love the pre-game comments from Jerry's sidekick in the radio booth about how ISU has played better in the second half in some of their games and moved the ball. And the ROOT announcer said the same thing today after the 99 yard TD drive in Missoula.
Fortunately the other ROOT guy reminded everyone that the ISU first string was up against reserves (i.e., 2nd and 3rd string) for the Griz for much of the second half today. Same thing for the other games.
Rebuilding? Ha Ha Ha!!!! :rofl:
ISU football is still very much in the demolition stage!
How much longer before this team implodes on itself - or maybe it already has?

 

[psk584]

I know Coach had said they won't recruit Juco transfers but as weak and as small as our D-line we have to get more size and speed. Second Coach K needs to step aside as Def Coordinator and turn over the duties to an existing coach or bring a Def Coordinator with some experience.

 

[bhumble]

Maybe, maybe not does it really matter... Next season will likely not be a significant improvement. We will recruit more 'A' student freshman with D2 talent and get crushed by every team in the big sky. At this point I don't think that three more seasons will make a significant difference - I watched our defense read the play correctly and then simply get out run to the end zone. You can't fix the problems we have in one season or even two. Bringing in more freshman will do nothing for us. Our approach to the game exacerbates our weaknesses. Add the problems we already have with the two a year body bag games and you have a recipe for never getting out of the hole.


I guess the one positive point is when you are a dumpster fire the only way to go is up.

Exactly

 

[sasquatch]

Add the problems we already have with the two a year body bag games and you have a recipe for never getting out of the hole.

Morbid curiosity made me pick up another copy of the PR today, and Lambert had another column about ISU's mess. Did I understand him correctly that Kramer's contract calls for him getting 1% of the money game amount? Seems like there is incentive to ALWAYS take the higher money game - and bigger beatdown - there. :twocents:

 

[bhumble]

Add the problems we already have with the two a year body bag games and you have a recipe for never getting out of the hole.

Morbid curiosity made me pick up another copy of the PR today, and Lambert had another column about ISU's mess. Did I understand him correctly that Kramer's contract calls for him getting 1% of the money game amount? Seems like there is incentive to ALWAYS take the higher money game - and bigger beatdown - there. :twocents:

If this is true the person that agreed to this on the ISU side should have his head examined and should join one the other 23,000,000 people looking for a job, unbelievable. it would not surprise me though, sounds like a Tingey move.

 

[PBP]

I don't know a thing about Mike's contract, that's none of my business.

What I do know is that ISU was playing money games before he got here. I also know that Jeff has said publicly and on the coaches show that money games are (paraphrasing) the "reality" today.

You want to have a number of programs in different sports giving athletes a chance to play and get an education?

Then you have to pay for said programs.

The only way to do that is by playing football and men's basketball money games. That's reality. Better get used to it.

ISU is not Texas which made 36 million in football or Kentucky which made 16 million in men's basketball which can pay for track and women's basketball and all the other sports.

You play the games to get the check as well as (and I'm not underselling this point) give these guys the chance to tell their kids someday, 'yea I played Oklahoma...or I played in front of 90 thousand fans... or I played in Rupp Arena...'

Unless someone can come up with a donor who can shell out, oh say 10 million a year forever this is how you survive today.

PBP

 

[bhumble]

I don't know a thing about Mike's contract, that's none of my business.

What I do know is that ISU was playing money games before he got here. I also know that Jeff has said publicly and on the coaches show that money games are (paraphrasing) the "reality" today.

You want to have a number of programs in different sports giving athletes a chance to play and get an education?

Then you have to pay for said programs.

The only way to do that is by playing football and men's basketball money games. That's reality. Better get used to it.

ISU is not Texas which made 36 million in football or Kentucky which made 16 million in men's basketball which can pay for track and women's basketball and all the other sports.

You play the games to get the check as well as (and I'm not underselling this point) give these guys the chance to tell their kids someday, 'yea I played Oklahoma...or I played in front of 90 thousand fans... or I played in Rupp Arena...'

Unless someone can come up with a donor who can shell out, oh say 10 million a year forever this is how you survive today.

PBP

PBP, are you kidding me, I mean really? Really?? This is the worst Bengal team ever and maybe one of the worst in the history of FCS and you continue to stand up for this joke of a program. I have been watching Bengal football since the Eddy Bell days in the spud bowl, this team is terrible and it is not going to get better in the near or distant future. Words can't express where this program is. At this point I would take Cross and Walsh, it's that bad, we are the laughing stock of D1 football.

 

[biobengal]

You play the games to get the check as well as (and I'm not underselling this point) give these guys the chance to tell their kids someday, 'yea I played Oklahoma...or I played in front of 90 thousand fans... or I played in Rupp Arena...'

Well in that case, carry on, ISU is playing these games so players can generate a few memories. Tell that to the boosters and the butts in the stands, they've also generated a few memories. ISU appears to be treating athletics like a business while forgetting the consumers.

I just hate that ISU trashes the two sports people care about. Over the last 5-10 years, nobody in the Big Sky Conference has played more money games in football and men's basketball than Idaho State.

 

[bhumble]

You play the games to get the check as well as (and I'm not underselling this point) give these guys the chance to tell their kids someday, 'yea I played Oklahoma...or I played in front of 90 thousand fans... or I played in Rupp Arena...'

Well in that case, carry on, ISU is playing these games so players can generate a few memories. Tell that to the boosters and the butts in the stands, they've also generated a few memories. ISU appears to be treating athletics like a business while forgetting

If it were a business they would have been bankrupt years ago. They are on the tax payer now so carry on. It will be better in 2020, they may win 3 or 4 games.

 

[PBP]

Humble:

I'm not "defending" anything.

I'm simply saying that all those who continue to moan and complain and grumble and bellyache about "oh my goodness...we've got to play TWO whole games against bigger teams" (in football) simply isn't willing to understand reality today in college athletics.

Period.

The reality today is that schools have to fund a number of athletic programs that lose money. That's a fact. Where is the money going to come from Humble? You want more taxes taken out of your paycheck to do so?

Now you might say, 'who cares about women's volleyball, who cares about women's golf, who cares about swimming and diving (for example...) shut em' down... or wrestling, or skiing or rodeo or all the minor sports"

That's fine...except the government (Title IX) says you can't do that, or if you want to, you probably are going to have to abandon the football program altogether because of the same legal requirements. (proportionality)

So again Humble...you tell me... WHERE IS THE MONEY TO SUPPORT THESE LEGALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS GOING TO COME FROM?

Should I hang up and wait for your answer?

In fact the ONLY way the money can be raised for these programs in a practical sense is by the football and men's basketball (and in some cases women's basketball) teams going out and playing money games. (Unless you've got a fabulously wealthy alumni base to work with...) I mean think about it, you think ISU track can run somewhere for 200 hundred thousand dollars? Only football and men's basketball pays out that kind of money...not women's basketball, not volleyball, not any other sport.

And please, everyone needs to stop with the 'only ISU plays as many of these games...' ALL teams in the Big Sky play them. ALL of them. In fact 80% of all colleges at the D-1 level play games like this. Perhaps the 20 biggest football and men's basketball programs nationally do not...that's all.

Even Montana went to Iowa to open the season a few years ago if I remember correctly, and got their brains beat out...for money. And it could be worse, a "lot" worse. Mississippi Valley State two years ago in men's basketball played Georgia, Indiana, St. Mary's, BYU, Butler, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Kentucky, Marquette and Southern Miss all on the road, raising money to keep their athletic department alive.

I don't know of any coach, any player, any administrator, and any broadcaster at ISU who particularly likes the situation. Everyone I know wishes the men's basketball team, for example, turned a 16 million dollar profit last year like Kentucky did and can subsidize everyone and buy nothing but home games. (It's not particularly inviting to have to get up at 4AM 20 times a year to get on the bus to go to Salt Lake City to grab a plane for Spokane or Denver or Phoenix or Sacramento or Dallas or Minnesota or who knows where else...)

The reality is that's not going to happen. Not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow.

I get your anger, your frustration...believe me I do. What I don't get is the criticism without accepting the reality that facts are showing.

Unless you've got a five million dollar annual donor hiding in your pocket what are your alternatives?

I'd be very interested in hearing them.

I wasn't trying, by the way, to hammer you personally; again I understand where you are coming from. I've been involved in the sports media since 1978; I know fans get upset and frustrated. (believe me, I've been a White Sox fan for 52 years...) But there's a difference between being frustrated and lashing out at folks who are doing what they can for everyone to have a chance to survive and potentially thrive. :twocents:

PBP

 

[bill_idaflls]

PBP: Great post and Great Eye-Opener.

 

[biobengal]

And please, everyone needs to stop with the 'only ISU plays as many of these games...' ALL teams in the Big Sky play them. ALL of them. In fact 80% of all colleges at the D-1 level play games like this. Perhaps the 20 biggest football and men's basketball programs nationally do not...that's all.

You are most incorrect, not just for Big Sky schedules this year, but in previous years as well. I'll see if I can dig it up, it's been posted here before. ISU's proclivity for scheduling is near the top in the Big Sky.

 

[Skippy]

They had this same debate on the Weber State message board this fall because the Wildcats also routinely play two "money" games every year. I have my own views on this scheduling philosophy which I will keep to myself, but here is data you need to consider, no matter what side you come down on:

According to numbers ISU gave the State Board in February, game guarantees were estimated to account for about $1.1 million in revenue for FY 12 -- or about one-third of all "program revenue". (Compare that, say, to ticket sales of $264 K for the year). Game guarantees were estimated to be the largest source of program revenue by a factor of two, with only advertising, royalties and sponsorships even close (at $530 K).

For all revenue sources, only state funds ($2.1 M) and student fees ($2.2 M) are larger than game guarantees. So...the point is that if you make an effort to cut the number and/or "impact" of money games, you're going to have to decide how to make up that revenue. Can you eliminate one "money" game in football and still balance the books? Probably. Can you still introduce another women's sport, as ISU is apparently planning in order to continue to "show improvement" in Title IX compliance, and afford to not play two money games anymore? Maybe, maybe not. This is where it gets fuzzy and you need a lot more detail than is included in the state board reports to understand what is driving the current "two money game" approach in football, and the requirement that both the men and women generate a specific amount of revenue in basketball.

 

[PBP]

Bio:

Which doesn't mean that my statement that 80% of all colleges at the D-1 level schedule 'money games' is wrong does it? Look up the schedules nationally of most of the FCS schools, for that matter look up the schedules of the smaller FBS conferences.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And folks it's not like ISU is scheduling #1 Alabama AND #2 Oregon every year is it? They schedule a big power (i.e. big payout) team like Oklahoma or Nebraska and they schedule, frankly, a middle of the road FBS school. Air Force, Utah State, Wash. State, Utah (before they hit that hot streak), Kentucky, Ole Miss aren't exactly football powers and ISU has played them all since the late 90's (bet some didn't realize this money game environment began before three years ago)

Just this year folks:

No. Colorado at Utah, So. Utah at Utah St., Sac. State at N.M. St., No. Arizona at Arizona St., Weber St. at Fresno St., Weber St. at BYU, Sac. St. at Colorado, UC Davis at San Jose St., No. Arizona at UNLV, So. Utah at Cal, E.Washington at Wash. St., Portland St. at Washington, Cal Poly at Wyoming, No. Dakota at San Diego St.

I'm getting mixed signals from reading these posts from some folks...are you angry they are scheduling ANY 'money games' or the fact that one of them is generally against a Top 25 FBS team for a monster payout?

Either way the bottom line is this, as of this writing no one...no one, has answered my question of, if you don't want to play any money games in football or men's basketball, how do you pay for the non money making programs? How do you keep the athletic department a float today?

One final point...mention was made last night by someone about men's basketball playing that killer schedule one year when Joe was head coach. I'm sure the person knows this but just in case...that schedule was played because the athletic department was in debt by almost a million dollars due to the previous A.D.

Did you want that debt just to sit there? Did you think that debt was just going to 'go away?'

It's not a perfect sysytem by any means that ISU, the other Big Sky schools and 80% of schools not named Texas, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, North Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Oregon, Notre Dame have to deal with.

But the bottom line is that's the situation in place right now based in large measure on finances.

And for good or for bad, that's not going to change anytime soon so we all better get used to it and work towards improving the current model as best as we can.

PBP

 

[PBP]

Skippy:

Thanks for the facts and figures.

Good reading.

PBP