Time To Flip And Look At The Big West

[Pounder]

The Big West announced this week that they've extended memberships to UC San Diego (currently D-2) and Cal State Bakersfield (currently WAC).

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bigwest/bake-to-the-big-west-too-t21478.html

That puts them at 11. Dennis Farrell had said he'd go for 12. If I take the conversation in that link as a marker of previous conference discussions, then there are many who think Seattle U is a possibility, something they see as expanding the conference footprint and opening up more TV possibilities. The discussion doesn't seem to stop at 12, BTW... though it probably shouldn't assume that New Mexico State is fait accompli. That gets the conference nowhere.

So all that stuff I've said in the past about the Big West being out of the question? It appears conditions may have changed, or are changing.

There's a catch...

Baseball. Soccer. Volleyball. Those are the conference's marquee sports, they want to see all the schools playing them. Portland State will have to upgrade volleyball (we know the past, which was D-2) and get going on baseball and men's soccer. Here's the chance to have the Dirtbags in town; Hillsboro Stadium could use a few spring dates.

Portland State needs some serious (if not major) financial upgrades to go there. This is where axing football MIGHT help, though I don't even think there's a 1-to-1 ratio of the end of football leading to improvements in other sports. There has to be support for the other sports.

So does Portland State want to be Seattle's traveling partner? (This assumes Gonzaga doesn't leave the WCC to join a bigger conference, which would all but cement Seattle's place in the WCC. Gonzaga has made noise about "keeping all options open.") Or is it time to truly commit to making it work in the Big Sky?

 

[martymoose]

Interesting.

I think it would be a hard sell to drop a program that is (as far as I know) financially self-sufficient and add multiple programs that would probably not be. Not that I don’t love me some baseball (oh, and thanks for reminding me that Long Beach State goes by the Dirtbags. Awesome), but revenue for the three sports you mentioned is probably quite minimal. Who knows, maybe those that are not a fan of Athletics within the University may look at a much reduced budget (I think football is like 3.8m or so if I recall correctly) for Athletics and automatically think that it is a step in the right direction. That being said, a little bit of me would die if PSU dropped our football program, and I say this after an 0-11 train wreck season in 2017. Too many memories of Saturdays filled with PSU football. Not always the best of memories, but memories nonetheless.

I do think that the Big West is a quality conference. I’d love to see a Big West conference schedule that we could fill in the terrible non-conference games with upper tier Big Sky programs for men’s hoops. Seriously, you drop Portland Bible, Evergreen State, and Willamette with Idaho, Weber State, and Montana, and that’s a quality schedule from top to bottom. Add that to our fancy new Pavilion and I think that’s a recipe for building a program.

Who knows, maybe PSU could get creative and see if there’s donor money out there for bringing back the sports you mentioned. Would baseball be that hard to spark interest? Appoint a committee led up by someone like Tom Trebelhorn to drum up support. Get the Old Timers Baseball Association of Portland on board. Work in tandem with the management group that was recently put together for another MLB to Portland effort. We’ll support you in MLB to Portland if you support us on bringing baseball back to the Park Blocks. This stuff seems so easy on a message board. ;-)

Anyway, I’d be a fan of us moving to the Big West. Keep football in the Big Sky ala Cal Poly, but move our full membership out of there.

 

[CaseyOrourke]

Talking about baseball, a few weeks ago I took my daughter to play in the fountain at the local park. I was wearing my Portland State t-shirt and baseball cap when I sat down next to a guy who was watching his own kids. I began to notice he was checking out my shirt and hat after which he asked if I was an alum of Portland State. It turns out he too was also from Portland and his dream job was to be the head baseball coach at PSU, but after they cancelled the program, he bounced around different colleges till he finally got hired as the head baseball coach at nearby Schreiner University.

 

[bigskyconf]

The team they want is Sac State. They still want a California only (besides Hawaii) conference. Seattle U is holding out for the WCC, and being a private, Jesuit university, they fit that footprint better than the Big West.

The other name I'm hearing for the Big West is San Francisco State.

Geez, even in the offseason, our Timbers fella wants to axe the football team. hno: Give it a rest, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Pounder]

The team they want is Sac State. They still want a California only (besides Hawaii) conference. Seattle U is holding out for the WCC, and being a private, Jesuit university, they fit that footprint better than the Big West.

The other name I'm hearing for the Big West is San Francisco State.

Geez, even in the offseason, our Timbers fella wants to axe the football team. hno: Give it a rest, it ain't gonna happen.

I've read some other stuff saying that a side deal involving UC Davis and Cal Poly prevents Sac State from joining the Big West. Kind of curious if you know different... because I would otherwise have figured Sac State would already be in the BW by now.

After all, the BW doesn't lack for politics. UC San Diego got turned down last spring, but now they're admitted with CS Bako... one UC school, one state school. If nothing else, I would figure there's no way to add one of one without one of the other judging by the way these schools vote. I think the late options here are UC Merced (new campus and just settling into NAIA) and UC Santa Cruz (their students were close to shutting down athletics altogether... though Slime On Slugs!) to have to go along with Sac. I'm sure things could change, but how? The notion of going out of state rests on two concepts; (1) out of other practical options, (2) maybe, a somewhat flimsy maybe, expanding the footprint gets more media presence.

BTW... you forget who has been talking off and on about Portland State's "cultural fit" perhaps not being with the Big Sky schools. As in not me. Thing is, Seattle seems far-fetched until you realize that the WAC is in trouble again (besides Bakersfield, UM-Kansas City is talking about returning to the Summit Conference) and there may not be time for a Seattle to "hold out" for the WCC. Also, you might note the reframing of the "cultural" debate here, and what it means when I wrote "Or is it time to truly commit to making it work in the Big Sky?" It's one thing for me to say that football- the SPORT- may no longer be the driver of any smaller athletic program, especially at what one might term a "commuter school." It's another for the institution to keep running it on a shoestring and ALSO remain a renter. Maybe it's better for you to be angry at me than to question the institution we love about never really providing the resources to try to get the program to thrive; I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that philosophical debate.

 

[bigskyconf]

I've read some other stuff saying that a side deal involving UC Davis and Cal Poly prevents Sac State from joining the Big West. Kind of curious if you know different... because I would otherwise have figured Sac State would already be in the BW by now.

The key is "want". They want Sac State. Indications are that, while they may want Sac State, the Hornets are in no hurry to leave the Big Sky. It's similar to what Idaho football was going through until now. If they ever get fed up with their situation, the Big West will welcome Sac State, just like the Big Sky was willing to wait for Idaho football.

Takes two to tango. The NHL wants to put a team in the Moda Center, but Paul Allen doesn't want a hockey team. As a result, Portland has no NHL team.

 

[BroadwayVik]

There is an earlier conversation to reference on this topic prior to some of your recognizing the value of such a move.

SEE Discussion on Page 2 on Topic: Big Sky chooses new basketball tournament location

Very glad for the value of this idea now being recognized.

 

[bigskyconf]

There is an earlier conversation to reference on this topic prior to some of your recognizing the value of such a move.

SEE Discussion on Page 2 on Topic: Big Sky chooses new basketball tournament location

Very glad for the value of this idea now being recognized.

Not the first time this topic has been discussed. Probably not going to be the last time, either.

 

[BroadwayVik]

The Big West now has 11 slots filled. In all likelihood, the 12th slot will simply go to Sac State.

My hope for Portland State joining was based on the possibility of Cal State Bakersfield not being allowed membership. That is no longer an issue.

Hawaii being granted permission is most likely based on an incomplete number of California universities being fit and able to join. I see Sac State as making themselves fit to join, needing some extra time to build up finances.

Hawaii is acceptable, but likely no longer is Portland State if the Conference is able to have an even number of 12 teams with Sac State. The Conference prefers an exclusive California University content with Hawaii as the lone exception.

 

[BroadwayVik]

One possibility is to hope for the self-destruction of the WAC and, at the right time, build it back up again with the right teams. The Jesuit school is not a good choice for a member as it draws a lot of negative emotion, even from Rome. I'd say they would be a problematic member and should be avoided.

All non-western universities also need to be kept out. Makes the organization look too desperate. The name is not bad, but it attracts a lot of ridicule suggesting WACkiness. Perhaps a new name is needed. We could begin this organization and allow memberships to those only who are acceptable.

I'd suggest we get together with Utah Valley University and Grand Canyon University representatives and act as a core for building up membership for a new conference. Where we could look to build a great conference would be to programs that are not good now but who have the wherewithal to become good quickly.

Other membership possibilities include:

San Francisco State
Golden Gate University
University of Denver
Cal State Los Angeles

Quickly developing universities include UW-Tacoma (already 8,000 and growing quickly). I suggest we follow up with fact-gathering quietly.

 

[Alan1]

One possibility is to hope for the self-destruction of the WAC and, at the right time, build it back up again with the right teams. The Jesuit school is not a good choice for a member as it draws a lot of negative emotion, even from Rome. I'd say they would be a problematic member and should be avoided.

All non-western universities also need to be kept out. Makes the organization look too desperate. The name is not bad, but it attracts a lot of ridicule suggesting WACkiness. Perhaps a new name is needed. We could begin this organization and allow memberships to those only who are acceptable.

I'd suggest we get together with Utah Valley University and Grand Canyon University representatives and act as a core for building up membership for a new conference. Where we could look to build a great conference would be to programs that are not good now but who have the wherewithal to become good quickly.

Other membership possibilities include:

San Francisco State
Golden Gate University
University of Denver
Cal State Los Angeles

Quickly developing universities include UW-Tacoma (already 8,000 and growing quickly). I suggest we follow up with fact-gathering quietly.

Really, we are worried about Jesuits? That the Pope would not be pleased? SU has a long and glorious basketball history that would add some cachet. Besides it resides in a very wealthy media market and has a university administration that is committed to a successful basketball program.

Regarding UW-Tacoma, like WSU-Vancouver, it does not participate in inter-collegiate athletics.

Golden Gate University? It is primarily a grad school and does not sponsor athletics.

 

[Pounder]

I tried to avoid a vision of the WAC someone on their board had regarding the following issues:

New Mexico State needs a conference for football after this year.

UC Davis and Cal Poly were, according to this guy, moving up.

Grand Canyon just badly wants to have football somehow. (Grand Canyon makes for a lot of curious message board speculation that doesn't add up; probably a favorite subject of Randians for all I know)

Some other (especially Texas) schools want to move up.

All this on the theory that the WAC could just bring back FBS football.

But the guy ain't credible. Especially regarding Poly.

I have read something as speculative but somewhat credible about Metro State in Denver and Mesa State in Grand Junction possibly wanting to move up... and if that could induce Denver U to leave the Summit, then there's a core of schools in the mountain west that would make the WAC slightly more sensible. However, I don't see DU joining in; they could already have done that during a slightly more stable WAC. The conference doesn't lend itself to a sensible travel budget.

 

[Pounder]

Interesting amount of information in this article: http://www.pe.com/2017/12/04/alexander-with-big-west-expansion-whats-wacs-and-cbus-future/

One piece of dissuasion regarding the Big West: Hawaii won't have to subsidize travel for SD or Bako... nor anyone else who comes after. The article doesn't consider the Big West ramifications past that (even though the paper is covering both UC Riverside and Cal Baptist; it's Baptist and their pending WAC membership that seems to take center stage in this article).

One thing this doesn't mention, but is noted for more local ramifications: it seems up and down the threads I'm reading that Azusa Pacific is a strong possibility to follow Cal Baptist into the WAC. Azusa has football to consider; they're currently playing in GNAC for football, so if they do move up, that might become a Big Sky football possibility. (Is that a good thing? Let's just say they're sharing a football stadium with a junior college, though some of those California JC stadia are bigger than you'd think possible.)

They get awfully cavalier about the chances Cal Baptist can land in the WCC if the WAC fails... shrug.

The other thing of note: it's basketball that brings Bakersfield into the Big West. I'd seen elsewhere that bringing the WAC schools into the Big West would actually UPGRADE Big West basketball given their low ratings. If Portland State ever feels the need to move, and if the spark the basketball team has now can be sustained, that would be a selling point. Of course it's hard to count on that in a 10-year plan.

 

[Pounder]

Next time someone goes wild advocating moving up to FBS, I'll TRY to remember that I posted the following article: https://www.azdesertswarm.com/2017/12/1/16672508/new-mexico-state-arizona-bowl-football-one-fbs-school-said-it-can-only-afford-to-play

BTW, for Alan... how long will the GNAC be able to have football? I was reading about Humboldt State's near-football-death experience yesterday. Couple that with Dixie State leaving for the Rocky Mountain AC, the possibility of Azusa Pacific moving on, and the fact that HSU is having to recruit the football players they already have because of spending the whole season worried football would be axed (and the coach under orders to NOT recruit HS kids during the season), and it's hard not to sense the train wreck happening.

 

[BroadwayVik]

UW-Tacoma does not currently participate in athletics, but that situation may change in the near future. They could be called and queried about their future. Right now, PSU would be wise to undertake communication in a fact-finding mission to determine area of viability with many potential conference partners.

We can target certain undervalued universities such as CSU-Los Angeles and San Francisco State initially. I might suggest our officials converse with their officials and see what their tendencies are, where they stand now and take a look at what kind of viable building options may exist. Perhaps the less viable members of the WAC could vacate it and more viable members could remain.

Coast affiliation makes much sense for PSU.

I think what is important for Portland State to do is to find find politically similar venues with whom to establish conference affiliation. That works so much better for PSU than the current situation in which PSU is one of the scant few Blue-State teams (Portland State, Eastern Washington, Northern Colorado) after Sac State leaves among a largely Red-State team conference.

 

[Pounder]

I think what is important for Portland State to do is to find find politically similar venues with whom to establish conference affiliation.

The cynical answer to this is to hold the belief that a political partnership- especially with aforementioned California schools- would result in athletics being shut down at more institutions rather than less.

One thing I established at the start of this thread is that conferences generally do NOT seek political agreement. They look for "fit," but in an athletic sense and a financial sense (how many resources are you devoting to athletics).

The more informed answer lies in that Humboldt issue I mentioned. There's a Cal State system. Humboldt is the last D-2 public school in California with football. The trouble started because the state system declared Humboldt State SHOULD close down football; they're trying to cut costs. I believe Humboldt survives due to donor/sponsor/community support.

So you're asking about LA and SF, two of the most increasingly expensive cities in the world in which to operate. A state system more or less running these programs is laser-focused on cost containment. We don't have to establish a backchannel to glean what the answer is going to be. San Francisco may want to "move up," but that's going to have to come from a community that all too likely barely cares.

 

[bigskyconf]

I think what is important for Portland State to do is to find find politically similar venues with whom to establish conference affiliation.

Well, for what its worth, Missoulians tend to line their political beliefs with Seattle and Portland, and they are very proud of that. They do claim a kinship to the Northwest, more so than their in-state brethren in the eastern part of Montana. The University of Montana has had a reputation for being one of the stronger liberal universities in the country, going back to several on campus "social discourse" in the early '60's, some even rivaling Eugene and Berkeley back then.

 

[bigskyconf]

I think what is important for Portland State to do is to find find politically similar venues with whom to establish conference affiliation.

Well, for what its worth, Missoulians tend to line their political beliefs with Seattle and Portland, and they are very proud of that. They do claim a kinship to the Northwest, more so than their in-state brethren in the eastern part of Montana. The University of Montana has had a reputation for being one of the stronger liberal universities in the country, going back to several on campus "social discourse" in the early '60's, some even rivaling Eugene and Berkeley back then.

 

[Pounder]

I think what is important for Portland State to do is to find find politically similar venues with whom to establish conference affiliation.

Well, for what its worth, Missoulians tend to line their political beliefs with Seattle and Portland, and they are very proud of that. They do claim a kinship to the Northwest, more so than their in-state brethren in the eastern part of Montana. The University of Montana has had a reputation for being one of the stronger liberal universities in the country, going back to several on campus "social discourse" in the early '60's, some even rivaling Eugene and Berkeley back then.

First, I remember seeing the demonstration right at the start of the game (televised and all).

http://missoulian.com/news/one-night-in/article_ab7ef3cc-170a-5853-9c9b-2bf98691fd55.html

Second, a reminder of purple America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2013/11/12/most-americans-live-in-purple-america-not-red-or-blue-america/?utm_term=.9b21ebacb207

 

[Pounder]

Went on another reading fit last night and today after hearing some whispers about Sac State and their arena proposal (more because they're targeting not only the upgrade to their basketball program, but the G-League team currently playing in Reno and maybe even minor pro hockey)...

...more than one person in more than one place mentioning rumors of a split of the Big Sky.

Anyone heard such rumors? More to the point, details?

I think I can guess who might have broached that subject when (chuckle) "deigning to grace us with their presence" recently. Thing is... I can imagine this being the concept:

Idaho and Idaho State
Montana and Montana State
New Mexico State
trying to pry UC Davis from the Big West
All the Dakota Schools (envisioning BSC rep running down the hallway yelling PLEASE COME BACK)

If not the Dakota schools, hmmmmmm... not sure they'd look to PSU and Sac at that point...

The point here being state "flagship" schools (loosely termed as it applies to Idaho State) and a "near-Ivy" in Davis (which is kind of the way Davis sees it, BTW). Which leaves:

EWU
Northern Arizona
Northern Colorado
PSU
Sac State
Southern Utah
Weber
Cal Poly (FB only)

...and the possibility of remaining WAC schools:

Cal Baptist
Grand Canyon (still stunned at the number of onlookers that covet this school)
Seattle
Texas-RGV
Utah Valley

(I'm assuming here that Chicago State withers and dies, literally, and UM-Kansas City returns to the Summit)

There lies a potential conference with greater LA, Sacramento, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle, and to a small degree Salt Lake City represented, so there's a few urban bonafides FWIW. It's hardly ideal, and you could hope there's never any discussion with the Texas school. I'm not sure it's worth the time of day... but what I'm saying is any split discussion is less a geographic consideration and more a "school fit" issue.