Time To Flip And Look At The Big West

[bigskyconf]

Went on another reading fit last night and today after hearing some whispers about Sac State and their arena proposal (more because they're targeting not only the upgrade to their basketball program, but the G-League team currently playing in Reno and maybe even minor pro hockey)...

...more than one person in more than one place mentioning rumors of a split of the Big Sky.

Anyone heard such rumors? More to the point, details?

Rumors have been running around since back when North Dakota joined the conference regarding splitting the conference into two divisions. But, just rumors, mainly from the fans of the schools. Seems like we always have a lively discussion about it over on Any Given Saturday at least once a year. However, the administration has said they like it as it is, without divisions.

And as an aside to Sac State's arena proposal, the Nest is even smaller than the old Stott Center (seems strange to refer to Stott Center as "old" but I guess that is the case now). With PSU opening up the Pavilion, Sac State needed to do something about it.

 

[Pounder]

And as an aside to Sac State's arena proposal, the Nest is even smaller than the old Stott Center (seems strange to refer to Stott Center as "old" but I guess that is the case now). With PSU opening up the Pavilion, Sac State needed to do something about it.

I went there almost 10 years ago. The athletic website (at the time) didn't identify the location and the online campus map wasn't any better. I stop in at the Alumni Center right when I get to Sac on a Saturday... and two guys in there didn't even know where the place was. Someone else finally identified the name of the "hall" where it was located. I think that place is older as well as smaller. It's like they're embarrassed to identify it for anyone visiting.

That was prime Dominguez/Morrison at the time, BTW... fun to get in there and watch PSU run away with that one.

 

[martymoose]

And as an aside to Sac State's arena proposal, the Nest is even smaller than the old Stott Center (seems strange to refer to Stott Center as "old" but I guess that is the case now). With PSU opening up the Pavilion, Sac State needed to do something about it.

I went there almost 10 years ago. The athletic website (at the time) didn't identify the location and the online campus map wasn't any better. I stop in at the Alumni Center right when I get to Sac on a Saturday... and two guys in there didn't even know where the place was. Someone else finally identified the name of the "hall" where it was located. I think that place is older as well as smaller. It's like they're embarrassed to identify it for anyone visiting.

“I have a guy who has seen who has seen all 351 [Division I arenas],” Katz said. “The guy said [The Nest] is 350th. He said there’s one that’s worse. … I have always said that the biggest eyesore on campus is the gym.”

Yeah, embarrassed is probably the right word.

 

[Pounder]

Meanwhile...

http://csnbbs.com/thread-838151.html

So Idaho AD Rob Spear is firing up reorganization talk. That figures. I have questions about how much consensus he can build.

Mind you, there's an article suggesting a gentleman's agreement to realign Conference USA and Sun Belt to be more geographically sane and cut costs for all schools involved. Still, someone actually has to pull the trigger... and maybe the tax law change that WILL impact college sports is that trigger.

 

[Pounder]

Trying to decide if this thread should “end” or if there’s enough valuable tidbits to carry forward as we start talking potential split.

Takeaways:
Dennis Farrell may be the long-time commissioner of the Big West, and has made the “we’ll get 12” comment in the past, but the truth is that the conference is run by the UC and Cal State systems.

The expansion happened the way it did because there was one UC school and one Cal State school joining. Point being that Sac State is not going to be voted in without a corresponding UC school for the near future... and there are no more UC schools ready to move up. However...

If a UC school leaves, the power structure changes. The only school who could trigger that would be Davis (the only UC system school that has football and is not in the PAC-12). They have a LARGE endowment and an expandable stadium, but they’re a quirky bunch whose designs may or may not be geared to normal thinking about conferences. UCD leaving is, from what I see, the ONLY way Sac State gets a BWC invitation. And who knows?

I think Farrell wants to expand the TV market of the Big West. I just don’t think he has a single vote within the conference to get that done. Dude’s been there since Boise joined.

I mentioned Humboldt earlier. They keep D-2 football for now, but the way it all happened should be unnerving. They’ve been set a year behind in recruiting. It feels like a decision that will get revisited. The Cal State system initiated this... is that where they stop? Or do Cal Poly and/or Sac State need to look over their shoulders?

One way that ties back to the expansion... suspect Cal State partly wanted this to cut costs for CSU-Bakersfield. The WAC ain’t cheap. That’s how committed Cal State is to reducing costs.

So there are decisions down there that clearly affect the Big Sky. Meanwhile, supposedly the Idaho AD isn’t the only BSC AD talking split. More research is needed.

 

[bigskyconf]

Trying to decide if this thread should “end” or if there’s enough valuable tidbits to carry forward as we start talking potential split.

Thread should end, especially if you are getting your "tidbits" from the fan message board you cited.

No potential split, either in the Big West, the WAC, or the Big Sky.

Sac State likes it in the Big Sky and has no plans to move out and join the California schools in the Big West. If they did, it would have happened long before now.

The Big West enjoys their California connections as well as the trips to Hawaii. They won't be looking any time soon to offer an invite to an outlier who's closest opponent would be 500 miles away.

Humboldt, like WOU and CWU, does not have the facilities currently to make a move to DI and, if they indeed are set back by the Cal State system, they won't for awhile yet.

In a nutshell, the Big Sky is strong, the Big West is set, and the WAC is dying a slow death with no DI conferences in the West offering a lifeline. Time to move on.

 

[Alan1]

Trying to decide if this thread should “end” or if there’s enough valuable tidbits to carry forward as we start talking potential split.

Thread should end, especially if you are getting your "tidbits" from the fan message board you cited.

No potential split, either in the Big West, the WAC, or the Big Sky.

Sac State likes it in the Big Sky and has no plans to move out and join the California schools in the Big West. If they did, it would have happened long before now.

The Big West enjoys their California connections as well as the trips to Hawaii. They won't be looking any time soon to offer an invite to an outlier who's closest opponent would be 500 miles away.

Humboldt, like WOU and CWU, does not have the facilities currently to make a move to DI and, if they indeed are set back by the Cal State system, they won't for awhile yet.

In a nutshell, the Big Sky is strong, the Big West is set, and the WAC is dying a slow death with no DI conferences in the West offering a lifeline. Time to move on.

I really enjoy the speculation. According to the press Gonzaga is looking for a new basketball home and Seattle U would love to take their place in the WCC. As to Sac State, rest assured they would much rather have a travel schedule that included paid trips to Hawai'i rather a self funded trips to Bozeman. However , for now, I suspect Davis stands in their way. Regarding CWU and Humboldt State, sadly, they both outdraw the Vikings in football and men's basketball. I really don't think they are interested in going D1. I do think that we should consider joining in D2.

 

[Pounder]

I didn't mention Humboldt because I thought they were moving up. I mentioned Humboldt because the Cal State system continues a habit of axing football programs (or attempting, in this case, and the next test is how long Humboldt FB can survive without state support)... and if Sac State and Poly aren't careful...

Oh, but the Big Sky is strong? Have you looked at the ramifications of the tax law change yet? You can't write off donations to schools (including the "donation" that's part of a lot of season ticket purchases) anymore. As the costs of running sports go up and revenue goes down, blam, there's going to be problems, and any FCS or even D-2 conference that's geographically spread out is going to get nailed by that. The split, should it happen, is a defense against costs. The point is there's now at least one AD talking in these terms. TV revenue is a pittance, basketball is normally of low regard (it obviously should NOT be that way this year, time for an attendance check), so it might be wise to consider some options.

 

[bigskyconf]

Oh, but the Big Sky is strong? Have you looked at the ramifications of the tax law change yet? You can't write off donations to schools (including the "donation" that's part of a lot of season ticket purchases) anymore. As the costs of running sports go up and revenue goes down, blam, there's going to be problems, and any FCS or even D-2 conference that's geographically spread out is going to get nailed by that. The split, should it happen, is a defense against costs. The point is there's now at least one AD talking in these terms. TV revenue is a pittance, basketball is normally of low regard (it obviously should NOT be that way this year, time for an attendance check), so it might be wise to consider some options.

Tax law changes? All I want to do is discuss athletics.

Yes, the Big Sky is the stronger conference when compared to the Big West. The Big Sky started in 1963 and since then, have lost only four members (Nevada, Boise, North Dakota and Northridge). The Big Sky is nationally strong in football and men's basketball, the two main revenue generating sports in college athletics. Replacing North Dakota with Idaho will help with travel costs in the Big Sky as Idaho is more in line with the conference "footprint". The Big West set up shop in 1988 consisting of only California schools to ease on travel. They brought in Hawaii when they agreed to help with travel costs to Hawaii for the other members. If PSU were to jump the shark and leave the Big Sky for the Big West, no doubt the Big West would want PSU to help with the travel costs, especially when PSU is 500 miles from Davis, which in itself is an outlier in the Big West.

With the added costs for PSU joining the Big West adding up, I don't see the benefit for leaving the Big Sky and going to the Big West. Isn't that what we are talking about here?

 

[Alan1]

@bigskyconf wrote: "The Big Sky started in 1963 and since then, have lost only four members (Nevada, Boise, North Dakota and Northridge)."

Well, that is not quite correct. Only four schools have been with the Big Sky since the beginning: Idaho State, Montana, Montana State, and Weber State. Of the other charter members Gonzaga left in 1979 and Idaho in 1996.

 

[Pounder]

So I care less about thread drift than @bigskyconf, and I'll have a chuckle about it.

There's a good reason or several. I will argue that the smart athletic department is constantly evaluating their position when the landscape is even potentially shifty. This landscape is rather shifty. There's a time and place to "just talk sports" and that went away a long time ago.

To just talk Big West when the lagging evidence shows it's probably not an option, sure, we don't have to. A thread to keep gauging the temperature, to understand options, to see where everything else is going, it's time to have that.

On that note, I want to reiterate a question to Alan. We get your D-2 argument, I know what kind of sense it might make to go GNAC...

...but we have Humboldt State football almost killed and left with problems, and rumors of Azusa Pacific leaving to join Cal Baptist in the WAC (and creating another curious potential Big Sky mouth to feed). Then there's Simon Fraser, not really a tire fire, just way underinvested. What's the future there? Will Southern finally move from NAIA and "save" it? I wonder if Linfield could be goaded into moving up.

 

[Alan1]

@Pounder
Regarding a PSU move to GNAC, football would not be the chief beneficiary other that in a massive reduction in program cost. Yes, Humboldt State was on the brink, but the community stepped up. Yes, Simon Fraser is "underinvested," but they keep plugging along in spite of it. I doubt that Azusa leaves to join the WAC. Southern Oregon has discussed going D2 but they feel they can't afford it. However, we might just encourage them to do so. Linfield is totally happy dominating the NW Conference in football. Finally, PSU joining the GNAC would give the conference a huge boost for football as well as the other sports. Besides maybe we could play at Lincoln, Franklin or maybe up the hill at Lewis and Clark and abandon the cavernous and ill attended Providence Park facility.

Maybe we get baseball back! That went away when the Big Sky came calling. For men's and women's basketball and softball it couldn't get much better than the I-5 rivalries: Western Washington, Seattle-Pacific, St Martin's, Concordia, Western Oregon.

The big benefit is in cost. The cost of FCS football is huge. Although @bigskyconf claims the program uses neither general fund money nor student fees to fund the program, it does. The great change was not allowing them to go over budget and then be bailed out with additional money from the general fund. It would be so much less costly to be a member of the GNAC. And, given the lack of interest in Big Sky athletics in Portland, the move certainly not damage attendance. Now, I doubt that we do it, but if we don't, I think football goes away and that would be a shame.

 

[Pounder]

Southern Oregon has discussed going D2 but they feel they can't afford it.

I wonder if conditions have changed given a national championship and a pretty good 4-year run. Mind you, I can't begin to imagine how a fundraising program would work down there.

Linfield is totally happy dominating the NW Conference in football.

Not really surprised by that. Though a lot of money has gone into Yamhill County the last couple decades.

Although @bigskyconf claims the program uses neither general fund money nor student fees to fund the program, it does. The great change was not allowing them to go over budget and then be bailed out with additional money from the general fund.

The thing that surprises me the most is that there hasn't been a student initiative to change that. Keep throwing in tuition increases, however, and you gotta wonder when the dam breaks at the back end.

Now, I doubt that we do it, but if we don't, I think football goes away and that would be a shame.

I stand by comments I've made previously on "the other problem" here. Especially now that Idaho football has returned to the Big Sky, I'm rather convinced that Portland State would be booted from the Big Sky if it dropped football. The base reason is that the last thing other Big Sky schools want is a non-legacy school trying to win all the sports by not investing in football. Institutional fit, essentially. If there's anything "strong" about the Big Sky, it's that football binds this conference together. Meanwhile, travel costs and other things are certainly causing people in other parts of the country to question their far-flung conference layouts. The Sky is not immune to that, and is subject to even more remote locations than most of the other schools talking about these things right now.

 

[ManOfVision]

I see talk about the GNAC not benefitting football. If that's the case, what's the point? It certainly wouldn't benefit our other programs, either! In the Big Sky era, PSU has actually been remarkably successful in other sports, and it is football that needs to do the catching up.

 

[bigskyconf]

I see talk about the GNAC not benefitting football. If that's the case, what's the point? It certainly wouldn't benefit our other programs, either! In the Big Sky era, PSU has actually been remarkably successful in other sports, and it is football that needs to do the catching up.

Finally a voice of reason. :thumb:

 

[Alan1]

hno:

I see talk about the GNAC not benefitting football. If that's the case, what's the point? It certainly wouldn't benefit our other programs, either! In the Big Sky era, PSU has actually been remarkably successful in other sports, and it is football that needs to do the catching up.

Finally a voice of reason. :thumb:

Please note: I wrote "...football would not be the chief beneficiary...."

 

[bigskyconf]

hno:

I see talk about the GNAC not benefitting football. If that's the case, what's the point? It certainly wouldn't benefit our other programs, either! In the Big Sky era, PSU has actually been remarkably successful in other sports, and it is football that needs to do the catching up.

Finally a voice of reason. :thumb:

Please note: I wrote "...football would not be the chief beneficiary...."

Whatever. :tothehand:

 

[Pounder]

It's probably a blessing that some of my speculation could be getting torn up sooner rather than later.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/sd-sp-gonzaga-mountain-west-sdsu-20180228-story.html

Something to fill in here- Gonzaga probably wants some of the same considerations in a potential basketball TV contract that Boise State gets in football. Of course, that could also be something the WCC ends up providing if that conference wants Gonzaga to stay. If the WCC balks or can't afford it, and if BYU goes along with Gonzaga (and that's a lot of history with the Mountain West to overcome on BYU's part), then you're looking at Seattle getting a quick invite, the WAC either gets creative or implodes, and maybe nothing happens to the Big Sky and maybe something else happens. It does put New Mexico State in a squirrely position.

 

[bigskyconf]

It's probably a blessing that some of my speculation could be getting torn up sooner rather than later.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/sd-sp-gonzaga-mountain-west-sdsu-20180228-story.html

Something to fill in here- Gonzaga probably wants some of the same considerations in a potential basketball TV contract that Boise State gets in football. Of course, that could also be something the WCC ends up providing if that conference wants Gonzaga to stay. If the WCC balks or can't afford it, and if BYU goes along with Gonzaga (and that's a lot of history with the Mountain West to overcome on BYU's part), then you're looking at Seattle getting a quick invite, the WAC either gets creative or implodes, and maybe nothing happens to the Big Sky and maybe something else happens. It does put New Mexico State in a squirrely position.

I doubt the WCC wants Gonzaga to leave, but I don't think there is anything they can do to appeal to the Zags. They were hoping that other schools would follow Gonzaga's plan but really, the only one that have been able to stay close to the Zags is St. Mary's (well, maybe BYU). Gonzaga has grown too big, spotlight-wise, for what the WCC can offer and probably would be better off leaving for greener pastures. I don't know if the Mountain West is all that "greener" but until the Pac-12 comes calling, it would have to do.

Would BYU follow? Would they even get a sniff from the Mountain West? There were a lot of bridges burned on both sides when BYU left the Mountain West. It would kind of depend on if they realize they are no longer on the same level as Utah, but rather Utah State now, and that has been a touchy subject with their boosters. If those who still harbor delusions of being on the same level as Utah are in the majority, I don't see BYU returning to the Mountain West any time soon.

New Mexico State and UTEP both seem to be in a quagmire of DI athletics, although UTEP has done well recently in C-USA. I guess they play for something called a brass spittoon so I don't think UTEP would want NMSU to drop down even to FCS in football. Whether UTEP could pull some strings and get NMSU into C-USA (rescuing them from the WACky mess) remains to be seen. Otherwise, NMSU could get an invite from the Mountain West. Rumors have been floated about them joining the Big Sky or the Southland but that would necessitate moving football to FCS and the end of their spittoon.

 

[Pounder]

One of the rumors I’ve read is UTEP is getting renewed MWC interest. Also possibly Rice.

If true, if the Mountain West is considering expanding past even 13, this means the Mountain West is inching closer towards making the same mistake that led to its creation in the first place. That would be even funnier than watching them and BYU try to get back together.

That is to say Gonzaga would improve their lot, both would benefit from what would likely be “some” increased ESPN contract valuation, but not enough to justify 16 or 17 schools in the conference. The WAC, well, you know the story.