The Green Hornet
Active member
Embarrassingly bad play by the Hornets. We didn't score for the first 7:35 and were down 17 to zip by then. Down 41 to 9 at the half! At least a dozen T/O's. Fewest points we've EVER scored by halftime. Terrible!
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Hornets at EWOO...
- Thread starter The Green Hornet
- Start date
williestarbuck
Active member
I never thought I'd say this but you can pull the plug on the Men's BB program. The program has fallen way too far. With the difficulty there has always been attracting good talent to the program, it is not even conceivable to think a descent recruiting class would want to follow this? With Davis on one side and Pacific on the other, where does that leave us? I think after this season the program has dug a whole about 6 feet deep, so just bury us and bring on the slow singing...on the flip, the football program continues to build real excitement. I don't have football knowledge like a lot of the posters but it looks like we can compete for a conference title. I'll go ahead and predict a 2nd place finish (wish we had Hillard to feel better about this prediction, though). Can't wait to see how the season plays out.
williestarbuck said:
I've advocated dropping the program for years. But you have to have it for Big Sky membership and I would think Big West also as it is their only marquee sport.
Bad year=bad recruiting
Abysmal stats=laughter and hangup by recruit
Bad venue=no DI quality recruits (yes, we have had a few nuggets over the years)
bottomline=we are not going to grow with the current facility and we won't be building anything in the next five years, at least, based on the current economy.
williestarbuck
Active member
But 41 to 9 at the half???!!! The Big Sky has to give us an exemption and let us out. 41 to 9 That's just sad. 41 to 9 playin the Lakers, maybe...I mean I laughed and cried at the same time. How do you not score a point in 7+ minutes? That's impossible to do with a shot clock. ..Poor playing, poor coaching, poor Hornets! WANLESS
This sounds like the same garbage that people were spewing about the football program when Moose was trying to run it into the ground. You have not even given the Coach Katz a chance to recruit his own class (not the three weeks he had this year). At least wait to see what this Coach can do with his own recruiting class.
Of course I was discouraged when I listened to the 9 point first half last night. Then they came back in the 2nd half and scored 37 on 52% shooting.
How about you just chill out and give the new Coach all the support a coach trying to pretty much build a program from the gorund up deserves.
Of course I was discouraged when I listened to the 9 point first half last night. Then they came back in the 2nd half and scored 37 on 52% shooting.
How about you just chill out and give the new Coach all the support a coach trying to pretty much build a program from the gorund up deserves.
Agreed Cecesdada. Look folks, this program is not going to be dropped. Period. End of discussion. Just like football. It's not going to be dropped.
Did people honestly think we were going to win 10 games this year with only 4 returning guys to the squad? This is how I figured the season would be. As bad as it has been, it hasn't been as bad as the worse during the Newman and Abatemarco tenure's.
Let Katz bring in the guys he wants the next two years before you throw him under the bus.....
Remember patience is a virtue....and look how long we were patient with football and its finally taking off. Hell, look at very patient we were with Coach Muscatell and that program is finally taking off......
Did people honestly think we were going to win 10 games this year with only 4 returning guys to the squad? This is how I figured the season would be. As bad as it has been, it hasn't been as bad as the worse during the Newman and Abatemarco tenure's.
Let Katz bring in the guys he wants the next two years before you throw him under the bus.....
Remember patience is a virtue....and look how long we were patient with football and its finally taking off. Hell, look at very patient we were with Coach Muscatell and that program is finally taking off......
Green Cookie Monster said:
Never drop your programs, if its that bad, simply move your basketball team to the Basketall only conference the Big West, and then Move your football team over to the Football only conference the Great West, so you will always have your rivalry with UC davis, and the travel costs wouldnt be so bad.
superhornet
Active member
WILDCAT said:
Can't do that. The BW (which isn't hoops-only as you claim it is) doesn't have associate members any more; a member must sponsor a preponderance of the sports that the conference does, including MBB/WBB/WVB. Besides, there's little chance that the BW well accept a school that they've already booted. (Sac was a BW member for baseball/softball for a while before the BW dumped them.) The Great West is not football-only; they sponsor a whole range of sports, and that would REALLY send travel costs through the roof considering the fact that they have Houston Baptist and the REALLY horrible NJIT.
cecesdada said:
I agree with you as well cecesdada. Everyone is so ready to give up so soon, I'm not sure what everyone was expecting in the first place. A winning season? Good things will come once Katz gets to recruit the players he wants with the correct amount of time. Even though this year has been very hard to watch, it's only the first year and Katz isn't going anywhere for at least 4 more years. We should start looking forward to next year while also still supporting our Hornets....it isn't easy for them either.
williestarbuck
Active member
cecesdada, I'm not one to just chill out. And I haven't heard one convincing argument from anyone of you Katz groupies why we should accept this kind of season long performance. I've said in other posts we dont have to win to be respectable, just be competitive. This program stinks. We will be 2 wins and 20+ lopsided loses at season's end. In Wanless words, Jenkins had some success but he wasn't happy with the direction the program had gone the last couple of years. That doesn't sound like building a program from the ground up. We had a good run. The program was respectable. We need a coach, Katz or otherwise, who can get us back to that level and hopefully beyond. We are not headed in that direction and it's not because Katz didn't have time to recruit. He had time. Go back and read his quotes. He knew each player he recruited, watched them grow and develop and highlighted their strengths. Each hand picked recruit was consistent with his philosophy of getting "good kids from winning programs." To say he had to pick what was left is putting the players under the bus (but you'd do that to defend Katz). I'm going to hold him accountable. He'll have a full recruiting season to recruit this year, but after a season like this, what recruit with options would come? If a recruit visited Pacific, Davis, and Sac State, what would be the 2 schools he'd narrow his decision down to? Me as a fan cannot believe we'd get anyone better than who we have coming back. Katz' first season is a failure. And what's worse, I see no positive outlook for the future. Oregon State last year was the Sac State of the Pac-10. Similar coaching change, similar bad facilities, similar recruiting time frame for the incoming coach. Robinson has OSU winning and competitive. The kids has bought in to his philosophy and the program now has direction. We do not have that here. This is why Katz gets an F grade:
1. Does the program have direction? No
2. Is the team competitive? No
3. Has the team shown improvement? No
4. Does the team have discipline? No (Player suspension and academically ineligible players)
Key mistakes Katz has made.
1. Not retaining McGhee
2. Over estimated talent of recruiting class
3. Out coached in GW game
4. Inability to prevent long opponent scoring runs
5. No philosophy or style of play the team can execute (no idenity)
If this program can't compete, it should be dropped. It has taken Muskatell 6 years to be successful, and he'll likely lose 20 games this season. We'll have Katz next year. We're stuck with him. I challenge anyone of you Katz defenders to logically explain why I and fans like me should just Chill Out?
1. Does the program have direction? No
2. Is the team competitive? No
3. Has the team shown improvement? No
4. Does the team have discipline? No (Player suspension and academically ineligible players)
Key mistakes Katz has made.
1. Not retaining McGhee
2. Over estimated talent of recruiting class
3. Out coached in GW game
4. Inability to prevent long opponent scoring runs
5. No philosophy or style of play the team can execute (no idenity)
If this program can't compete, it should be dropped. It has taken Muskatell 6 years to be successful, and he'll likely lose 20 games this season. We'll have Katz next year. We're stuck with him. I challenge anyone of you Katz defenders to logically explain why I and fans like me should just Chill Out?
williestarbuck said:
That's fine and you are entitled to your opinion. And it's just that. I will bring this post in about 3 years to see where we are.....
BTW, you need to find out the real story about McGhee. He had too many of his friends in his ear saying not to play for Katz. Besides, I don't want a player of McGhee's character in this program and at my Alma Mater. I think Vinnie needs to learn what commitment and leadership is all about......
StungAlum
Active member
williestarbuck said:
You're not alone willie, I've been holding my tongue with regard to MBB since starting the infamous worst season ever thread, but thought I'd chime in and give you some support as we are in the minority. More often than not a fans pride overshadows reality and they will vehemently support their team, the team is absolutely terrible and Katz up until this point is not doing what he said he would do.
Let's set aside the fan bias and scrutinize Katz, he is the coach and is responsible for the teams record and competitiveness. He has not contributed anything positive to the schools or programs image, the only thing that I've seen from Katz in articles and interviews is that he doesnt really give any information and is apprehensive when talking about the program, it's as if he doesnt know what he's doing. When he talks about the team everything is very general and vague, there's no atempt on his part to highlight any positive aspects of this season other than saying that they are improving or working hard.
I know more about Katz' diet than I do about his coaching, now that's sad! I could care less that the guy runs 3 miles a day or eats 4 tomatoes for lunch everyday. Seriously, let's stop the madness and hold him accountable!
williestarbuck
Active member
SactoHornetAlum, my fraustration comes from seeing things a coach prepared to coach at this level should not allow to happen. I guess I don't understand your point about McGhee. I coached AAU 14U in the DC area for 5 years. Most of the kids were not only exceptional players but good kids too. But there was always one who thought a lot of himself. Other kids are talking to him; other coaches are talking to him. It didn't take long for me to understand that even though I wanted to blow that kid off, I owed it to the other kids and everyone else associated with the organization (parents, sponsors, etc.) to keep that kid and work with him if he can help make us better. Vinnie McGhee was an exceptional student-athlete. Katz has far more coaching years than I do and he's no doubt more knowledgable about the game. He has to know you don't let a kid of that caliber--exceptional student-athlete and conference Freshman of the Year--go just because he's dealing with transition. And if you do, you'd better have one hell of a backup plan. The other thing is, he has to be able to stop runs. If that's happening to me, I'm on the phone calling every coach I know saying, "Hey, they're running up 20 straight on me every time out. What would you do?" I mean seriously, this cannot happen every game or how can you win? You know what they call a boxer who keeps getting knocked out by the same left hook? A bumb. I don't hate Katz, but we do have to set aside the bias and really look at what's going on here. There are a few other things I see that has so far not given me the confidence we made the right choice. But I'll stop here as not to seem like I'm bashing him.
And I have looked at what's really going on here. If you want to put the onus on this season on one person's shoulders, then its Wanless. Because he knew the timelines of the recruiting season for basketball last spring. But its not all about being on one person's shoulder.
I'm tired of this "if we don't win right now, we will never, EVER be successful" mantra that some around here are espousing when you read between the lines. This slide we are in started about 3 years ago under Coach Jenkins. Why? I don't know. Actually it started when we got to 13-5 and 4-0 in conf. play 3 years ago and then the wheels fell off and we haven't recovered yet. But it will.
He also said in the beginning that he was going to get kids who could come in play now, even if their abilities weren't D-I caliber. He said even before this season began that this was the transition year. I'm sure you remember that statement. Look, in two years time we should have a real clear idea where this program is heading.
Patience is a virtue and if you don't have that.........
I'm tired of this "if we don't win right now, we will never, EVER be successful" mantra that some around here are espousing when you read between the lines. This slide we are in started about 3 years ago under Coach Jenkins. Why? I don't know. Actually it started when we got to 13-5 and 4-0 in conf. play 3 years ago and then the wheels fell off and we haven't recovered yet. But it will.
He also said in the beginning that he was going to get kids who could come in play now, even if their abilities weren't D-I caliber. He said even before this season began that this was the transition year. I'm sure you remember that statement. Look, in two years time we should have a real clear idea where this program is heading.
Patience is a virtue and if you don't have that.........
SactoHornetAlum said:
Amen to that. Please, lets all please be realistic in our expectations of how Katz's team should be producing. He is not trying to build a CYO program and did not inherit a North Carolina, or Duke. He is coming into a program that has been in shambles for years. Sure, Jenkins had a couple of decent years (where the talent he recruited carried his lack of X's and O's coaching), but the program was still in sad shape.
What did I see yesterday? I saw a team that was running an offense that was allowing them to get open shots and they are missing them. I saw a team that played their tails off against one of the better teams in the conference and hold them to 59 points.
Do I enjoy watching get blown out most games? Heck no. Do I see some positives? Heck yes. Let's agree that we all knew this was a transition year and see if we begin to see progress next year. If we don't see some progress, I will then begin bitching.
http://espn.go.com/ncb/teams/schedule?teamId=16&year=2006
Sac State had a BS conference tournament win at Montana State that year. I wouldn't call that a slide. If anything, the slide started in early January of the following year. Also I can only speculate that Jenkins didn't try as hard in his final season knowing that he was not going to receive a contract extension. I find it hard to blame Jenkins as he brought relative success to a desperate program. I think Sac State got the most out of an 88k/year head coach salary and should be more than content with what they got for what they paid for.
http://sacramento.about.com/od/procollegesports/a/jenkinsfired.htm
I also find it hard to blame Jenkins for his recruits having academic issues as the new coach has brought similar issues with his "kids who could come in [and] play now, even if their abilities weren't D-I caliber" recruits as well. I guess some of the recruits also aren't academic "D-1 caliber" either.
I agree, let's just not extend this "transition year" into a 5-year stretch. With that said, the administration needs to get with it and build a new gym/arena (hell at this point I'll even settle for a circus tent with bleachers) and end this embarrassment.
Kadeezy
Active member
I watched the game on TV yesterday and it's good to see Randy Adams develop in the post and I think the team did a good job of hustling. I just CAN'T get excited about the style of play though. We are unbelievably boring to watch. We pass the pall around near half court for 10 seconds or so, we set one screen, and the ball handler forces the ball in down low, with the ball either flying of clumsy hands in the post or just rolling out of bounds. I would rather see if Loren Leath can get hot and just jack up 15 3s...
I will wait before calling for Katz's job, but I'm definately not impressed thus far. If you compare to Sperbeck taking over the football program, he wins the transition comparison, hands down.
One other note about yesterday's game... How the he!l is Aaron Wilson on a DI roster? He tries to hustle and be scrappy, but man he falls over so much, gets bullied in the post and blown by quicker more athletic forwards on a routine basis...
I will wait before calling for Katz's job, but I'm definately not impressed thus far. If you compare to Sperbeck taking over the football program, he wins the transition comparison, hands down.
One other note about yesterday's game... How the he!l is Aaron Wilson on a DI roster? He tries to hustle and be scrappy, but man he falls over so much, gets bullied in the post and blown by quicker more athletic forwards on a routine basis...
Kadeezy: I agree with you about Wilson, but also remember, he was out for several games with a Achilles injury so you have to think that is what is hampering him. Most guys on this roster are good Div. II players, not D-I. This what happens when 4 guys from last year's team who were eligible to come back flunked out. The only one that I thought was any good in that group was Alonzo Young, who had potential, but he is too much about himself and not the team.
Who cares if we are bashing Katz? If the man can't take criticism he is in the wrong profession.
How can a team only score 9 points in a half? Maybe in 1922, but this is a new century and teams score points.
Regardless if he had two months or two days to recruit, I haven't really seen any improvement across the board this season. Progress is rendered and judged on progress made. If we were losing games by 2, 5 or even 8 points that would be progress, but we consistently get blown out. It is a free fall. When we should be making free throws.
How can a team only score 9 points in a half? Maybe in 1922, but this is a new century and teams score points.
Regardless if he had two months or two days to recruit, I haven't really seen any improvement across the board this season. Progress is rendered and judged on progress made. If we were losing games by 2, 5 or even 8 points that would be progress, but we consistently get blown out. It is a free fall. When we should be making free throws.
