Hind sight is 20/20: A look back through years

[bhumble]

ISU football has been moving backwards for 20+ years with few exceptions. 4 or 5 different coaches and I don't know how many ADs and the results are always the same.

 

[pocatato]

Eastern and Weber are very close to large airports with direct flights. NAU, not as close. It is about an hour away from Phoenix. SLC Bengal, thank you. bhumble, thank you. It starts at the top, folks. I have lived through too many football coaches to think one more will make a difference if something doesn't change in administration. We can begin by letting football keep much of the money they earn in guarantee games as basketball has been able to do.

 

[Skippy]

Frankly, I think we're all fiddling while Rome is, well, getting a little warm. See the front page story in the Journal today about more budget cutbacks at ISU? The former faculty Senate chairman is quoted thusly: "It's time to cut from athletics and administration, in my opinion... Men's football is a failed program that generates a lot of embarrassing publicity for ISU. That might be a good place to start."

Because the athletic department relies so heavily on state funds and student fees, I've always felt it was politically vulnerable once economic times got tough. I'm not predicting the sky is falling -- yet -- but be assured there will be a lot more serious looks at where athletics fit in at ISU, and whether the cost of subsidizing the program so heavily, particularly when you're cutting faculty and staff, is worth it.

Spartan gave me a hard time last year when I started posting stories about the economy on this board, asking, in essence, what this has to do with ISU athletics. Well, we have seen a lot of ramifications already, starting with the decision to schedule Oklahoma in football. But if I were Jeff and Frank and coach Z, I'd start doing some serious research into the value an athletic department brings to a university and a community -- and a football program specifically. I'm no economist, but everything I see and hear about the state's budget situation indicates things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. That means the pressure is going to increase on all programs to demonstrate they add value.

Lewis' points about bringing in recruits and the travel situation are excellent ones, by the way. The football team use to charter to all away games -- we'd leave at noon on Friday and be home by midnight Saturday or a bit later the day of the game. We flew right out of the Av Center in Pocatello. Now, we bus to SLC or Boise, fly to the game, stay over Saturday night, fly back Sunday and bus back to Pocatello, usually late Sunday afternoon or evening. It impacts the players' study times and the coaches' prep times. And it sends another message to potential recruits, just like having to fly into SLC and drive up for visits does.

I think I've told this story before, but I'll repeat myself. Back in the 1990s, when ISU was looking to replace Tom Walsh, I was asked to contact Mike Kramer, then at EWU, to ask him if he'd be interested in coming to ISU. He told me ISU was the only job in the Big Sky he wouldn't take. I asked him why. He said, "you don't have a natural recruiting area." Think about that for a minute -- 95 percent of EWU's kids are from Washington State. Sac State has 89 kids on its 91-man roster from California. Both Montana schools have large in-state contingents. Those schools don't have to fly their recruits into SLC and bus them for three hours to come visit, then reverse the process.

I think all of these things will be fodder for deeper discussion as the administration and the community ponder the bigger issues of what athletics means to the university and southeast Idaho. The debate over whether Coach Z gets another year or two, in my humble opinion, will be overshadowed by much larger questions.

 

[bhumble]

Frankly, I think we're all fiddling while Rome is, well, getting a little warm. See the front page story in the Journal today about more budget cutbacks at ISU? The former faculty Senate chairman is quoted thusly: "It's time to cut from athletics and administrtion, in my opinion... Men's football is a failed program that generates a lot of embarrasing publicity for ISU. That might be a good place to start."

Because the athletic department relies so heavily on state funds and student fees, I've always felt it was politically vulnerable once economic times got tough. I'm not predicting the sky is falling -- yet -- but be assured there will be a lot more serious looks at where athletics fit in at ISU, and whether the cost of subsidizing the program so heavily, particularly when you're cutting faculty and staff, is worth it.

Spartan gave me a hard time last year when I started posting stories about the economy on this board, asking, in essence, what this has to do with ISU athletics. Well, we have seen a lot of ramifications already, starting with the decision to schedule Oklahoma in football. But if I were Jeff and Frank and coach Z, I'd start doing some serious research into the value an athletic department brings to a university and a community -- and a football program specifically. I'm no economist, but everything I see and hear about the state's budget situation indicates things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. That means the pressure is going to increase on all programs to demonstrate they add value.

Lewis' points about bringing in recruits and the travel situation are excellent ones, by the way. The football team use to charter to all away games -- we'd leave at noon on Friday and be home by midnight Saturday or a bit later the day of the game. We flew right out of the Av Center in Pocatello. Now, we bus to SLC or Boise, fly to the game, stay over Saturday night, fly back Sunday and bus back to Pocatello, usually late Sunday afternoon or evening. It impacts the players' study times and the coaches' prep times. And it sends another message to potential recruits, just like having to fly into SLC and drive up for visits does.

I think I've told this story before, but I'll repeat myself. Back in the 1990s, when ISU was looking to replace Tom Walsh, I was asked to contact Mike Kramer, then at EWU, to ask him if he'd be interested in coming to ISU. He told me ISU was the only job in the Big Sky he wouldn't take. I asked him why. He said, "you don't have a natural recruiting area." Think about that for a minute -- 95 percent of EWU's kids are from Washington State. Sac State has 89 kids on its 91-man roster from California. Both Montana schools have large in-state contingents. Those schools don't have to fly their recruits into SLC and bus them for three hours to come visit, then reverse the process.

I think all of these things will be fodder for deeper discussion as the administration and the community ponder the bigger issues of what athletics means to the university and southeast Idaho. The debate over whether Coach Z gets another year or two, in my humble opinion, will be overshadowed by much larger questions.

WOW

 

[isusid]

We are WAY ahead of you Skippy.....trust me on this.

ISUSID

 

[john_clayton]

We are WAY ahead of you Skippy.....trust me on this.

ISUSID

Okay. At what point, and by whom, will the fans, the university and the community hear about the research on the value of the athletic department brings to the university and the community by Jeff Tingey et al. ?

 

[tigersmilk]

that is good to hear frank (the preparedness)! ..any more details?

[in regard to Kramer]

He told me ISU was the only job in the Big Sky he wouldn't take. I asked him why. He said, "you don't have a natural recruiting area." Think about that for a minute -- 95 percent of EWU's kids are from Washington State. Sac State has 89 kids on its 91-man roster from California. Both Montana schools have large in-state contingents. Those schools don't have to fly their recruits into SLC and bus them for three hours to come visit, then reverse the process.

question: why can't the treasure valley and greater Pocatello be our "natural recruiting area"? i mean i know we spend time in state but maybe (and as consequence of the lacking funds) it would make sense to spend more time here. typically the excuse is that BSU will get everyone of worth in the treasure valley, but i would submit that with the prolonged success of Boise's program that they are able to delve further and further into the national talent pool. by virtue of their success shouldn't we see more and more bigsky caliber players being left out of Boise's grasp? I'm thinking, for two reasons (recruiting funds & BSU's success), that we will/should see an influx of Idaho players on the future rosters and i don't think that's a bad thing at all.

 

[pocatato]

There have been several studies done on the issue and several article in national publications like USA Today. I wrote one for the Idaho Falls paper a few years ago and the Journal wasn't interested. Bowen didn't believe the research. As I have said before on this page, ISU will be lucky to be playing football in five years (about four years ago) if something doesn't change. We keep making the same cookie with the same cookie dough.

 

[pocatato]

The University of Idaho has been thinking the same thing.

 

[tigersmilk]

here's a bit of subjective conjecture...from what i've seen and experienced idaho kids aren't always the fastest or strongest but they damn well work harder and care more when they become apart of this team. you might call it an intangible but as i see it those things are invaluable..

 

[GOBIGORANGE]

Skippy....I won't go as crazy as I did last year re: Recruiting Idaho Players but that is exactly what I have been saying....OUR NATURAL RECRUITING AREA IS IDAHO!!! Our Idaho players have done a great job and more would not hurt....You don't have to worry about how close you are to an airport because you can drive....and SAVE BIG BUCKS!

 

[votb]

We are WAY ahead of you Skippy.....trust me on this.

ISUSID

I LOVE you, Frank! Throw in a little morsel here and there...making all of us wonder what's going on and needing to beg for more information!

One of the things Frank's comment points out is that many of us get caught up in the day-to-day grind, just assuming because we don't hear any earth-shaking news out of Athletics that nothing is going on behind-the-scenes. Knowing our athletic administrators as I do (and I think I know the school's administrators fairly well, too)...it's almost inconceivable to think that the things that are being kicked around and argued on this board are things that administrators have not been working on far in advance of our conversations (or bickering as it may be).

I was amused by faculty member Delahanty's statement in the paper today, insinuating that football should be dropped because it has become an embarrassment to the university. In one sweeping statement he made the case for even stronger support of athletics and football, in particular. He was admitting (even though me may not have realized it) that successful athletic programs are huge assets to a university. Boise State gets a one-man show tonight on national television against Tulsa because of what Bronco football has become. Trust me, BSU football isn't nearly as hard-hit by these economic times as most other schools are (and we've already talked about the benefits UI gets from being in the same conference as BSU and getting a share of major bowl dollars). The money continues to flow into the athletic coffers at Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio State, USC, etc., and even at the University of Montana (filling a 25,000 seat stadium every home game brings dollars in). It's not money necessarily coming from state funds...but from boosters and corporate sponsors that want to be associated with a winning program as well. BSU is getting squat from its basketball program as far as national cred goes, football is carrying the water...and it translates across into enrollment numbers, which also have a positive impact on school budgets. Check this out and note the correlation with an ever-increasingly visible football program:

http://enrollmentservices.boisestat.../Fall Enrollment 1999-2008_FTE_Headcountt.pdf

Now based on our recent discussion regarding statistical maneuvering, let me say that there are obviously other factors that go into increased enrollments as well (ISU's overall enrollment hit a new high this fall, and obviously not because of football), but particularly note the high increase following BSU's Fiesta Bowl win over Oklahoma. The dollars are not flowing into BSU and its Athletics Department because the school is a great academic institution.

My whole point being if we can somehow improve facilities and at least keep our athletic programs (especially football) competitive, the positive public relations that come out of it will be significant, and the cash flow into ISU overall will increase as a result. If we provide adequate and growing financial support to our programs, especially football, many different coaches could succeed here. The reverse is also true...if we don't provide adequate and growing financial support (i.e. facilities, etc.), it won't matter who the coach is...they could all have win/loss records equivalent to Coach Zs. I think this is the whole point Pocatato has been trying to make, and he's RIGHT ON the money.

While we continue through this economic recession (and a tough one it is, and as Skippy says will likely get worse before it gets better), if we can find ways to keep "pooping instead of getting off the pot" (sorry for the graphic illustration), we will be in a stronger position to move forward when we come out of these dollar doldrums. Until we can put a coaching staff in a position to succeed instead of fail, it won't matter who holds the role...and turning over staffs every three years is not the solution.

IMHO.

 

[biobengal]

I just sent Delehanty a respectful note on why I think he is crippling this institution. I actually had him for a biology course back in the day, I can't wait to hear what he has to say, if anything. :lol:

 

[john_clayton]

My whole point being if we can somehow improve facilities and at least keep our athletic programs (especially football) competitive, the positive public relations that come out of it will be significant, and the cash flow into ISU overall will increase as a result. If we provide adequate and growing financial support to our programs, especially football, many different coaches could succeed here. The reverse is also true...if we don't provide adequate and growing financial support (i.e. facilities, etc.), it won't matter who the coach is...they could all have win/loss records equivalent to Coach Zs. I think this is the whole point Pocatato has been trying to make, and he's RIGHT ON the money.

A quick search on Google Scholar with the terms "impact of athletics on the university," results in several articles and textbooks on this subject. The status of the football (and men's basketball, primarily) seem to correlate with direct and indirect benefits.

 

[up for the challenge]

Stats are great but they do not always tell the whole story. I keep going back to the recruiting part of the program because great recruits can make a big difference in the win column for a head coach and his assistants. Coach Z came to ISU to rebuild the ISU program and that takes time through the recruiting process. This is why I think this year recruiting class is critical to Coach Z success at ISU as he has had some great recruiting classes the last couple of years. This year, the ISU program is struggling due to players not being eligible to play or being cleared through the NCAA Clearinghouse and also the program is struggling due to player injuries. The bottom line is Coach Z will prepare the team in practice each week to win the upcoming game and will make the changes necessary from week to week to put his best players on the field to give them a chance to win. I think he deserves a two year extension onto his contract regardless of his current win - loss record so he can continue recruiting the best players possible to ISU. Be patient Bengal fans, our football program is getting better and I think you will see some good wins in the very near future.

 

[tigersmilk]

Stats are great but they do not always tell the whole story. I keep going back to the recruiting part of the program because great recruits can make a big difference in the win column for a head coach and his assistants. Coach Z came to ISU to rebuild the ISU program and that takes time through the recruiting process. This is why I think this year recruiting class is critical to Coach Z success at ISU as he has had some great recruiting classes the last couple of years. This year, the ISU program is struggling due to players not being eligible to play or being cleared through the NCAA Clearinghouse and also the program is struggling due to player injuries. The bottom line is Coach Z will prepare the team in practice each week to win the upcoming game and will make the changes necessary from week to week to put his best players on the field to give them a chance to win. I think he deserves a two year extension onto his contract regardless of his current win - loss record so he can continue recruiting the best players possible to ISU. Be patient Bengal fans, our football program is getting better and I think you will see some good wins in the very near future

.

...sounds like pillow talk, are we hearing from John's better half?

 

[bengalbeliever]

Tigersmilk:
This is where you lose all credibility with me.
Kidding or not.

 

[tigersmilk]

Tigersmilk:
This is where you lose all credibility with me.
Kidding or not.

What? are we not allowed to guess who people are on here? nobody got mad when i figured out who frank (isusid) and jerry (votb) were...the more i hear uftc talk about this 2-year extension the more i think she might have some kind of inside information. she also seems to care a lot about the personal welfare of John AND his staff. i can see mary doing that.

just saying believin'...relax man.

 

[Skippy]

Big Orange, you didn't hear what Kramer was saying: there aren't enough good players in Idaho alone to build a successful program. The next time you see a Taiwan Jones, Matt Nichols, Dane Fletcher, Marc Mariani, Chase Reynolds, Cameron Higgins or Terrance Dailey at an Idaho high school, please let the coaching staff know.

I know there are good Idaho kids who can help a program -- we've already got 19 on the two-deeps. But you've got to have impact players to win consistently, and Idaho hasn't produced many impact players down through the years. And the really good ones get cherry picked by the BSU's, BYU's, Utah, Utah States, etc.

There is a reason you don't see a lot of Idaho kids on the rosters of other Big Sky schools. But you see a TON of Washington state, California and Oregon kids there. And the Montana schools? That is a true enigma to me -- how can such a small state produce so many impact players? Kids like Lex Hilliard, for example, who is playing in the NFL? But for whatever reason, Montana high schools consistently produce impact players at the Big Sky level -- Fletcher, Reynolds and Mariani are good examples.

Again, I'm not saying Idaho doesn't produce some talent -- AJ Storms is an all-league kid who is going to be a great player for us for years. But, as Kramer pointed out, Idaho doesn't produce enough kids to rely on solely.

And Frank, I knew you'd be on top of the messaging gig.

 

[boisebengal]

I agree with Cub in the fact that if Tingey really wanted Zamberlin for another two or three more years, then an extension would have already been in place, because this is crucial for recruiting purposes. And Blackfoot had already pointed out that Zamberlin's staff made some bad recruiting decisions their first couple of years here, and he pointed these out in detail. And the fact that the Z's player retention levels are very low relative to Lewis' recruiting classes. And these are some of the things that Tingey will look at when he makes a decision as to whether to keep Zamberlin or go in another direction. But I'm sure that our budgetary concerns are a big factor in this as well which Tingey will take into consideration. And I'm wondering what can be done to improve our overall football and FB recruiting budgets. It's difficult for me to believe that all ISU administrators are not support of ISU football when you consider that President Vailas and Kent Tingey both played collegiate football and are big sports fans. And I know they'd do anything to see that we could start fielding some competitive teams.