Hind sight is 20/20: A look back through years

[isusid]

Just a point, but I distinctly remember hearing about the fact that Larry has problems keeping kids from his first few seasons, and he didn't have APR to worry about, but I remember all of that message board talk. His retention has gotten better in people's minds over time, but it wasn't as great as everyone is remembering.

Just a point of clarification.

ISUSID

 

[Skippy]

Just for fun, I pulled up the announcements of the 2003 and 2004 ISU recruiting classes. As votb can attest, my memory ain't what it used to be, so I may be off a bit remembering who stuck around to finish their eligibility from those classes. If so, feel free to correct me. Anyway, from 2003, here are the kids who played considerably and, I think, completed their eligibility at ISU:

2003
Josh Barnett, Kenyon Blue, D.J. Clark, Ken Cornist, Jermaine Horn, Marcell Lagrone, Dustin Schroader, Evan Smith, Eddie Thompson and David Tongolei. (Nice class, eh? The all-time leading rusher AND receiver, and Kenyon Blue, all-conference DJ Clark and a Green Bay Packer (Evan Smith) to boot!) But...

The kids from that class who did NOT finish their eligibility at ISU (again, my memory is fuzzy, so correct me) included:

Tyrus Beckwith, Eric Bullen, Devin Clark, Ryan Hunt, Josh Galloway, Luc Martin, Bruce Minnett, John Morales, Todd Parker, Jimmy Recourt, Chris Ruiz, Ryan Slack, Joseph Strayhand, Morris Wooten.

Bottom line: 10 completed their eligiblity here, 14 did not. Retention rate: 42 percent.

2004

Stayed: Chris Boblit, Terrance Calloway, Michael Harris, Mark Hetherington, Kyle McQuown, Anthony Melvin, Shawn Oram, Xavier Simms, Jon Winn.

Left: Keola Asuega, Ivin Clark, Davin Garrett, Kinte Haynes, Ruben Jackson, Chris Seals, Hunter Sims, Courtney Smith, Roman Ybarra.

Bottom line: 9 stayed, 9 left. Retention rate: 50 percent.

Over two years: 19 stayed, 23 left early. Retention rate: 48 percent.

I haven't done the research, but that doesn't strike me as being all that unusual for the Lewis recruiting classes. I don't know how it compares to Coach Z's first three classes, I'm sure Cub has done the math. But basically, if you can bring quality players, kids who can make an impact, like that Thompson-Barnett-Smith-Blue-Clark class, you can sustain some losses. Heck, Boise State has a senior class of 5 kids this year, and they seem to be doing okay. The key is getting impact players at key positions, and then filling in around them.

And yes, losing kids can hurt your APR and you can lose some scholarships. Weber State got hit, I think, with three lost schollies. But when you bring in kids like Cameron Higgins, Tim Toone and Trevyn Smith -- again, impact players at key positions, you can sustain some losses and still win.

 

[bengalcub]

I would agree that Larry Lewis lost kids, in the last few years. However, what may be more interesting is how much talent stayed on in his first three years. Also, how much better was the product on the field during year three of the Lewis era. But this is not about Larry Lewis, is it?

My point with retention and Zamberlin has more to do with the penalties these can come with the deficiencies now. Secondly, the lack of depth on this years is very apparent with the number of the kids that left the program. I know that every program loses a few every year. I also know and can name if you would like me to, 10-15 kids that would be on the two deeps this season that have left or are ineligible for whatever the reason. Let me remind you that Zamberlin has only won four games since he became the HC at ISU and each year that he has been here the team has gotten less competitive as a team from year to year. The talent from the Larry Lewis regime is now almost gone and it shows. I don't care as much about the kids that never made it to camp, I care about the kids that are leaving after being with the team for a season.

I have done the research for the programs in the BSC over the last three years and I do know that ISU is bringing up the rear on this front.

Shut me up and come out and say it...losing these players does not matter at all with the depth and future of the BENGAL program...and ISU WILL NOT have any problems with the NCAA regarding APR issues.

Then I have to apologize to everyone and say what a "dumb ass" I have been--and you all know that I would.

The fact that this issues is getting defended so much, leads me to believe that where there is smoke there is fire. If it were irrelevant, folks would not pay attention to it.

 

[tigersmilk]

Just a point, but I distinctly remember hearing about the fact that Larry has problems keeping kids from his first few seasons, and he didn't have APR to worry about, but I remember all of that message board talk. His retention has gotten better in people's minds over time, but it wasn't as great as everyone is remembering.

Just a point of clarification.

ISUSID

gee frank, i wish this was a point of clarification. all i can see that you're saying here is something that you remember hearing about something that happened before you existed here. i know you have mounds of information available to you, open one of those retro media guides which has the roster information and tell us what you're trying to tell us...till then it just seems to me that you're attempting to sway public opinion without evidence. i trust you frank but it's just sketchy when you say, "i remember hearing something this one time" then refer to it as a given fact.

 

[isusid]

All I'm saying is that it was a big bone of contention on one of the older message boards that i think folks have forgotten about. Time has a away of erasing the bad memories of things...case in point Bruce Barnum...I can distinctly remember people being pissed about his offense, and now? Everyone loves it (I loved it from the get-go).

I'm just saying people tend to forget over time. I think Skippy used some good facts to point out things about retention and numbers and things...I'll leave that for those here to figure out and debate. Honestly I'm not trying to sway opinion in either way, just stating something that folks might have forgotten.

And Cub, rentention will never be irrelevent, but again, coaches in this day and age have a question to answer in regards to rentention...do i keep a kid and take the hit to the program, or drop a kid and take the hit in a different way. Remember, Z's staff has to learn about APR on the fly, as did O'Brien, and O'Brien's APR has gone way up in recent years as he has learned the system, and there is a system to it. Z's staff is learning the system to it, but with such a larger number to deal with, change is effected in a much slower pace (think about it...if you have pitched five games and have a good game, your ERA goes down significantly...if you've pitched in 35 games, and the 35th is bad, your ERA hardly moves).

Anyways, to this point, ISU has avoided penalties in football, and that's always the goal...no penalties. That part of your worry is in the minds of coaches, and again, Z did some staff responsibility shuffling to further address some of your concerns, which were his concerns before they were your concerns, if that makes any sense.

ISUSID

 

[tigersmilk]

hind sight may be 20/20 but looking forward Jeff Tingy can't see past the nose on his face!

 

[bengalbeliever]

hind sight may be 20/20 but looking forward Jeff Tingy can't see past the nose on his face!

And your an a-hole sometimes, but you are still allowed to speak on here.

 

[tigersmilk]

hind sight may be 20/20 but looking forward Jeff Tingy can't see past the nose on his face!

And your an a-hole sometimes, but you are still allowed to speak on here.

you're right i kinda am. i am a really opinionated person too. right now i'm feeling really bummed out believer. you know if you have to just ignore me (you probably do anyway), but i'm going to keep saying things the way i see it. clearly we both will

 

[votb]

hind sight may be 20/20 but looking forward Jeff Tingy can't see past the nose on his face!

I guess we'll know in two years. He renewed the soccer coach's contract and they won today to go 7-5, 2-1 in Big Sky...their best season so far since Allison's kids started playing. He hired a volleyball coach that has that team playing better than it's played in years. He just renewed joe O'Brien's contract for another three seasons, so I guess we'll find out how that goes, too. In two years we'll know about the football deal.

So, now that this decision has been made, who's aboard to support the Bengals and do everything they can to help the football program turn into a winner? And who's going to stay on the outside and see how many grenades they can lob...trying to foment failure and cause damage? It's one thing to stay away and decide to divorce yourself from the program if you don't like what happened today, it's another entirely to do whatever you can to tear it apart. It's just like the movie HOOSIERS when Coach Norman Dale quieted down the "We want Jimmy" chanters at the pep rally, pointed to the six kids behind him and said "This is your team".

 

[tigersmilk]

So, now that this decision has been made, who's aboard to support the Bengals and do everything they can to help the football program turn into a winner? And who's going to stay on the outside and see how many grenades they can lob...trying to foment failure and cause damage? It's one thing to stay away and decide to divorce yourself from the program if you don't like what happened today, it's another entirely to do whatever you can to tear it apart.

for some people John can just earn their respect with dinner meetings, golf rounds, and sweet talking. for others John will have to win games, remain competitive and improve where he's failed before they will respect him. this is because to some John G Zamberlin is an employee of Idaho State University who's job it is to manage a football team but to others he's just a good 'ol boy, a super-pal if i may.

he's not my super-friend. he's got some work to do before i respect him as a professional in his craft.

 

[bhumble]

hind sight may be 20/20 but looking forward Jeff Tingy can't see past the nose on his face!

So, now that this decision has been made, who's aboard to support the Bengals and do everything they can to help the football program turn into a winner? And who's going to stay on the outside and see how many grenades they can lob...trying to foment failure and cause damage? ".

So which one are you milk?

 

[tigersmilk]

i'm all for being a team player b, i mean i really want to be. this is my team too.

i guess my background and training lends me to approach a situation with logic and evidence in mind, more so than hope and a wish. what i've seen and what i can look point too in the past is how i tend to predict and prepare for the future. granted i've got a personal angle (as spartan loves to point out) that not a one of you can understand, i still think that i'm justified in being both upset and confused by this decision. i guess now that logic and evidence (as i've seen it) is out the window, all i have left it to hope for the best, which i do. i don't expect good things to come of this, but now all i can do is hope that it does.

 

[bengalcub]

VOTB, I am calling bullshit on that...

....you throw flowers and some throw grenades. All I see is folks that have a passion about the direction of the program. Some are satisfied and others are not. Damn near everyone of us that post have tossed flowers from time to time and most have popped the pin on the grenade a time or two.

I know with 100% certainty that the concerns that I have identified in the program are very real and these things need to be worked on an addressed. This does not make me less of a fan nor does it make others that have identified issues less of a fan.

I have had private and public conversations on this board and I am grateful for the points of view from the folks that I disagree with. In fact, I have had great discussions with people that will always be loyal to Coach Zamberlin and I respect that. I also have had conversations with folks that have very real and legitimate concerns with Coach Z and the direction the program is going.

I can promise you this, if John Zamberlin was fired today, I would not be on here chastising the posters that chose to support him.

Some folks believe that tearing things down and starting over would be the best course of action. Others prefer to keep building on the foundation that is already in place. Their are no wrong answers.

I can damn well promised you this---Milk has every right to be pissed and upset, every right in the world. This I will stand behind 100%, always.

 

[bengalbeliever]

Tigersmilk, it's not always what you say, its how you say it that I have a problem.
I am as opinionated as they get, however, unlike you, I refrain from dropping personal insults when making a statement or voicing my opinion.(except on you)

And Cub, so you're telling me that you condone the delivery method and the little personal digs that Tigersmilk has been throwing?

As I have said before, any legitimacy goes out the door with me from him due to the fact that there's vindication written all over his posts. It's one thing to have an axe to grind, but no need to due it in such a DISRESPECTFUL way. That's all I'm saying. And until he changes his tone, I will not concur with his logic and statistics even tho I will read them and may even agree. EVER

 

[tigersmilk]

Tigersmilk, it's not always what you say, its how you say it that I have a problem.
I am as opinionated as they get, however, unlike you, I refrain from dropping personal insults when making a statement or voicing my opinion.(except on you)

(other than calling spartan a remedial idiot, for which i apologized) are you referring to when i said JZ has digraced our community? cuz to be honest i'm not trying to be about personal insults here.. i think facts and opinions on them should be enough, right?

 

[bengalbeliever]

Then stick to the facts and your opinion brother.
Leave all the other bs out of it.
You make some good points at times but leave the personal stuff to discuss with them in person.

And Spartan has probably been called that by just about everyone in here, but he doesn't lay the personal jabs like you have been doing.

This statement by votb sums it up for me:
So, now that this decision has been made, who's aboard to support the Bengals and do everything they can to help the football program turn into a winner? And who's going to stay on the outside and see how many grenades they can lob...trying to foment failure and cause damage? It's one thing to stay away and decide to divorce yourself from the program if you don't like what happened today, it's another entirely to do whatever you can to tear it apart.

Z is our coach for at least the next 2+ years, time for all of us to figure out how we can help the cause.

 

[tigersmilk]

alright alright i hear ya..i guess we all got to keep each other accountable around here. if you think i'm saying something baseless then let me know. i'll either back it up, or redact. at the same time if i think you guys are love mongering zamberlin count on me to throw that out there too. just dont hate me for seeing things that way i see them.

bottom line: i want our seniors to not hate their last days, i want ISU football to be getting better, and i want to know that our players are being treated right behind the scenes. i think we can all agree these are the right things to want.

 

[tigerpaws]

Tigersmilk, it's not always what you say, its how you say it that I have a problem.
I am as opinionated as they get, however, unlike you, I refrain from dropping personal insults when making a statement or voicing my opinion.(except on you)

(other than calling spartan a remedial idiot, for which i apologized) are you referring to when i said JZ has digraced our community? cuz to be honest i'm not trying to be about personal insults here.. i think facts and opinions on them should be enough, right?

Regardless of what you are "trying to be about", and your wan defenses, you come across as arrogant, sophomoric, disrespectful, and above all doggedly negative towards Z and the program -- As if this were a vendetta for you, which several posters have suggested is the case. You are seeing some reactions to that, IMO.

 

[bengalbeliever]

You got it, that's fair.
I can tell you we want much of the same things.

But just a side note for as much as I lay the support for Zamberlin, I lay criticism too.
But I try to be fair when looking to place blame or criticize.

 

[bhumble]

Giving Z two more years does little to nothing. If the administration is not going to make a commitment to the program it will be more of the same thing we have seen for 20 years. It's not like everything is fixed now that Z got the extension. Nothing is fixed. There must be a fundamental change in the administration philosophy from the president on down.