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This could be interesting...
- Thread starter biobengal
- Start date
Here are a couple of points that I would make...
Kramer stepped over the line. Getting into Graves' face and chewing him out is one thing. The shove and then his making the alpha male move to go out of his way to step over Graves are both way out of line.
That said, Graves is a student athlete, a member of a team. I believe he was embarrassed (I fall short of calling it humilated) by the coach's actions. But I believe he threw his team mates, coaches and school under the bus when he stepped over the line by pursuing the matter in way that he chose. In my opinion, someone, either the player, his parents, this attorney or some combination sees an opportunity, whether it's money, publicity or whatever, and is using this incident as a springboard to cash in on that opportunity. From listening to the attorney, he's waiting for the investigations to be completed in order to use the findings to enhance his upcoming civil case. If the investigations lead to disciplinary actions, he's got that evidence to inject into his case. If the investigations don't result in disiplinary actions, he'll add to his list of defendants. I don't believe it's a matter of "if" there is a civil case filed against Kramer and the school, it's a matter of "when". In short, Graves' decision to address the issue as he did is a detriment to anyone associated with the team and the school.
What would I do if I were Tingey? First, I'd suspend the coach for a game or two and put him on a short leash. As for Graves, I'd see that he is not allowed on the field, whether he's released to play by doctors or not. His attorney is looking for a guarantee of his client's safety before he rejoins the team which Kramer, Tingey and ISU cannot guarantee. This is NCAA football, not checkers, hopscotch or as someone put it, ballroom dancing. So meet the demands of the attorney, give Graves a seat in the stands and let him be a spectator.
Finally, I would add that the majority of what is being discussed is Graves' point of view. Who's to say that ISU didn't begin investigating the incident when Graves contacted the school? The school has been silent and will probably continue to be so until their investigation is complete. This is standard policy. I don't see a problem with that.
Kramer stepped over the line. Getting into Graves' face and chewing him out is one thing. The shove and then his making the alpha male move to go out of his way to step over Graves are both way out of line.
That said, Graves is a student athlete, a member of a team. I believe he was embarrassed (I fall short of calling it humilated) by the coach's actions. But I believe he threw his team mates, coaches and school under the bus when he stepped over the line by pursuing the matter in way that he chose. In my opinion, someone, either the player, his parents, this attorney or some combination sees an opportunity, whether it's money, publicity or whatever, and is using this incident as a springboard to cash in on that opportunity. From listening to the attorney, he's waiting for the investigations to be completed in order to use the findings to enhance his upcoming civil case. If the investigations lead to disciplinary actions, he's got that evidence to inject into his case. If the investigations don't result in disiplinary actions, he'll add to his list of defendants. I don't believe it's a matter of "if" there is a civil case filed against Kramer and the school, it's a matter of "when". In short, Graves' decision to address the issue as he did is a detriment to anyone associated with the team and the school.
What would I do if I were Tingey? First, I'd suspend the coach for a game or two and put him on a short leash. As for Graves, I'd see that he is not allowed on the field, whether he's released to play by doctors or not. His attorney is looking for a guarantee of his client's safety before he rejoins the team which Kramer, Tingey and ISU cannot guarantee. This is NCAA football, not checkers, hopscotch or as someone put it, ballroom dancing. So meet the demands of the attorney, give Graves a seat in the stands and let him be a spectator.
Finally, I would add that the majority of what is being discussed is Graves' point of view. Who's to say that ISU didn't begin investigating the incident when Graves contacted the school? The school has been silent and will probably continue to be so until their investigation is complete. This is standard policy. I don't see a problem with that.
In yesterday's article in the journal it was mentioned that Graves filmed the video on his cell phone. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the practice footage belongs to ISU athletics, which means Graves basically stole the footage. If I'm ISU I'm pressing charges against him for stealing. Also since he obtained the footage illegally I do believe the footage is Inadmissible as evidence if he tries to take this to court. I also believe by stealing the footage he broke the student athlete ethics code which should mean immediate dismissal from the team. Unfortunately I think Graves got a big head at the beginning of the season and when Rumble came back and he was sent back to the bench his ego took a big hit which is why he is doing all of this. In no way do I think Kramer should have pushed him and should he be suspended for 1 or 2 games absolutely. Either way the whole thing is unfortunate.
notabengalalum
Active member
Kramer and Graves have done something that the ISU football team hasn't been able to do for years: get more than a couple of paragraphs of coverage in the Idaho Falls Post-Register in a week's worth of that rag. Today (Friday Oct 19th) Kramer's photo accompanied an editorial and then there was a Graves article on the sports page.
Here's the editorial (from the Cheers & Jeers Section). [I would have given the link instead but I'm not sure the precious Post-Register would allow a non-subscriber to access its pages.....] Here goes:
Shameful behavior in Pocatello
JEERS to Idaho State University and its head football coach, Mike Kramer.
On Oct. 3, Kramer shoved senior wide receiver Derek Graves to the ground and stepped over the player's prone body. Graves hasn't played since Kramer put him on his back, citing a neck injury suffered at his coach's hands.
ISU's administration and Kramer aren't speaking about the incident, which was featured on ESPN's show "Outside the Lines" on Tuesday. We do know this: University officials didn't take an interest in this until after Graves went to the police and ESPN was about to broadcast the story, which included video footage of Kramer shoving his player.
ISU's director of marketing and communication said in a written news release that the school launched an investigation immediately upon hearing about the incident. One wonders why, with a video tape of the incident available and several witnesses who most likely did not keep quiet about what they saw, it took ISU's hierarchy two weeks to learn its coach shoved a player to the ground.
That's a question ISU officials need to answer. Another thing they get to answer for is the hiring of Kramer in the first place. This was a risk. Everyone knew it. ISU officials decided that in order to win a few football games, it would bring in a guy who lost his coaching job at Montana State because several players and one assistant coach found themselves in serious trouble with the law.
There is no excuse for Kramer's actions. None. No university employee, be he the football coach or a linguistics professor, can put his hands on a student.
With both ISU and Pocatello police investigating his actions, Kramer shouldn't be coaching Saturday against Northern Colorado. Given what we saw on that video, Kramer shouldn't be coaching at all.
Once again, we wonder why ISU even bothers to field a football team. ISU football is subsidized by taxpayers who could care less if the school plays or not. They aren't Boise State and Mike Kramer isn't Chris Peterson. The Bengals are terrible. Attendance is bad. The coach clearly can't control his emotions. And the school's administration seems content to take the path of least resistance instead of doing what's right.[/
Here's the editorial (from the Cheers & Jeers Section). [I would have given the link instead but I'm not sure the precious Post-Register would allow a non-subscriber to access its pages.....] Here goes:
Shameful behavior in Pocatello
JEERS to Idaho State University and its head football coach, Mike Kramer.
On Oct. 3, Kramer shoved senior wide receiver Derek Graves to the ground and stepped over the player's prone body. Graves hasn't played since Kramer put him on his back, citing a neck injury suffered at his coach's hands.
ISU's administration and Kramer aren't speaking about the incident, which was featured on ESPN's show "Outside the Lines" on Tuesday. We do know this: University officials didn't take an interest in this until after Graves went to the police and ESPN was about to broadcast the story, which included video footage of Kramer shoving his player.
ISU's director of marketing and communication said in a written news release that the school launched an investigation immediately upon hearing about the incident. One wonders why, with a video tape of the incident available and several witnesses who most likely did not keep quiet about what they saw, it took ISU's hierarchy two weeks to learn its coach shoved a player to the ground.
That's a question ISU officials need to answer. Another thing they get to answer for is the hiring of Kramer in the first place. This was a risk. Everyone knew it. ISU officials decided that in order to win a few football games, it would bring in a guy who lost his coaching job at Montana State because several players and one assistant coach found themselves in serious trouble with the law.
There is no excuse for Kramer's actions. None. No university employee, be he the football coach or a linguistics professor, can put his hands on a student.
With both ISU and Pocatello police investigating his actions, Kramer shouldn't be coaching Saturday against Northern Colorado. Given what we saw on that video, Kramer shouldn't be coaching at all.
Once again, we wonder why ISU even bothers to field a football team. ISU football is subsidized by taxpayers who could care less if the school plays or not. They aren't Boise State and Mike Kramer isn't Chris Peterson. The Bengals are terrible. Attendance is bad. The coach clearly can't control his emotions. And the school's administration seems content to take the path of least resistance instead of doing what's right.[/
It's amazing to me how many posters on this board, including the Post Register, know what has been done by Tingey and the Administration at ISU to address this issue(?). They obviously have a lot more access than I, or the normal ISU sports fan, have to those who are investigating the situation. I say before calling for the head Tingey or Kramer or anyone else let’s see what happens following the investigation.
It's been a lot of years since I have played any kind of organized athletics - but - back in the day, I played in high school. It wasn't unusual for coaches to get physical with players on the teams I was associated with when the players were screwing off or not paying attention to what was going on in practice. I had my share of chest bumps from grown men, kicks in the butt for not performing a drill accurately, and face mask grasps to make sure I heard what the coach was saying. Did I or any of the other players run home to Mom and Dad whining about the treatment we received in practice? Heck no! My Dad would have told me to shape up or quit the team. I know this is a different day and we shouldn't expect that coaches or any other authority figure should physically abuse(?) student athletes, but come on, a shove on the practice field for not following directions??? Hardly a reason for police or civil action, in my humble opinion. But hey, what do I know, I grew up in a completely different day and age - and boy am I glad!
I hope this gets resolved soon. It certainly is another distraction for a team already struggling to find a way to win football games. The players, coaches, and administration have my support and I will continue to attend the games and cheer the Bengals on to what I hope are many victories in the future.
Go Bengals!
It's been a lot of years since I have played any kind of organized athletics - but - back in the day, I played in high school. It wasn't unusual for coaches to get physical with players on the teams I was associated with when the players were screwing off or not paying attention to what was going on in practice. I had my share of chest bumps from grown men, kicks in the butt for not performing a drill accurately, and face mask grasps to make sure I heard what the coach was saying. Did I or any of the other players run home to Mom and Dad whining about the treatment we received in practice? Heck no! My Dad would have told me to shape up or quit the team. I know this is a different day and we shouldn't expect that coaches or any other authority figure should physically abuse(?) student athletes, but come on, a shove on the practice field for not following directions??? Hardly a reason for police or civil action, in my humble opinion. But hey, what do I know, I grew up in a completely different day and age - and boy am I glad!
I hope this gets resolved soon. It certainly is another distraction for a team already struggling to find a way to win football games. The players, coaches, and administration have my support and I will continue to attend the games and cheer the Bengals on to what I hope are many victories in the future.
Go Bengals!
Bengalguy,
I agree that we don't know all the facts. So I don't disagree with your statements. Hell I just wrote on here a week or so ago that I hope they give Kramer a min of 5 years to see what he can do to build the program. And this post isn't to knock what you wrote. Just to give you my opinion of why I feel the way I do.
But my point is this, you final paragraph states...
"I hope this gets resolved soon. It certainly is another distraction for a team already struggling to find a way to win football games."
This week we have seen....
22 Min of National Negative Press on ESPN (Outside the Lines)
probably over 100 Newspapers/Internet/Blog/TV Stories Nationally covering the situation.
Stories all talk about the MSU problems which now for some reason tied to us because of the coach.
Stories about the EWU situation.
About 10 times the action on This site alone....
It’s been 2 Weeks. They have now had 72 Hours of the National Media Coverage that is all negative. People posting about how soft the team is and how bad Idaho State is. The only way to resolve this soon is to address it which ISU Athletics is refusing to do. We have already heard that Kramer apologized to the Kid and to the team the next day. Hell just say that. I'm and not a lawyer but how would that hurt the situation. How would it hurt for the SID/Head Coach/AD/ or President to say hey we looked at the tape, we understand it was inappropriate behavior, coach had apologized, but we are not ready to make a disciplinary action until after witnesses have been interviewed and we have spoken with the police and our legal counsel.
So I guess to wrap it up Bengalguy, I agree with you that this needs to end soon, but until they speak up and say something or do something it won't. ISU must find someone who is willing to step up in these situations and be the Face of the school. And handle these situations before they blow up into big deals.
I agree that we don't know all the facts. So I don't disagree with your statements. Hell I just wrote on here a week or so ago that I hope they give Kramer a min of 5 years to see what he can do to build the program. And this post isn't to knock what you wrote. Just to give you my opinion of why I feel the way I do.
But my point is this, you final paragraph states...
"I hope this gets resolved soon. It certainly is another distraction for a team already struggling to find a way to win football games."
This week we have seen....
22 Min of National Negative Press on ESPN (Outside the Lines)
probably over 100 Newspapers/Internet/Blog/TV Stories Nationally covering the situation.
Stories all talk about the MSU problems which now for some reason tied to us because of the coach.
Stories about the EWU situation.
About 10 times the action on This site alone....
It’s been 2 Weeks. They have now had 72 Hours of the National Media Coverage that is all negative. People posting about how soft the team is and how bad Idaho State is. The only way to resolve this soon is to address it which ISU Athletics is refusing to do. We have already heard that Kramer apologized to the Kid and to the team the next day. Hell just say that. I'm and not a lawyer but how would that hurt the situation. How would it hurt for the SID/Head Coach/AD/ or President to say hey we looked at the tape, we understand it was inappropriate behavior, coach had apologized, but we are not ready to make a disciplinary action until after witnesses have been interviewed and we have spoken with the police and our legal counsel.
So I guess to wrap it up Bengalguy, I agree with you that this needs to end soon, but until they speak up and say something or do something it won't. ISU must find someone who is willing to step up in these situations and be the Face of the school. And handle these situations before they blow up into big deals.
E5Bengal
I’m not an attorney but if I were the administration, or Coach Kramer, I wouldn’t be saying squat until the Pocatello Police either charge Kramer or drop the case. Anything they say now will be used by the attorney in a civil suit acknowledging wrong doing. I suspect that the coach tried, unsuccessfully, to quash this entire situation by apologizing to Graves. The fact that Graves, or his family, decided to contact an attorney and press the issue now requires both the administration and the coach to keep their mouth shut until the police either charge Kramer or drop the case completely. I expect once that happens the administration will move on with some form of discipline for the coach.
I think the administration wanted to get past this whole issue with a simple apology from Kramer to Graves and that didn’t work. Graves escalated the situation because he wasn’t satisfied with an apology and wanted some kind of retribution, and now the administration is waiting for the police report. Right or wrong I don’t think Tingey ever expected that this simple act of coaching excess would have been raised to the level that it has been – and you know what - I agree!
I’m not an attorney but if I were the administration, or Coach Kramer, I wouldn’t be saying squat until the Pocatello Police either charge Kramer or drop the case. Anything they say now will be used by the attorney in a civil suit acknowledging wrong doing. I suspect that the coach tried, unsuccessfully, to quash this entire situation by apologizing to Graves. The fact that Graves, or his family, decided to contact an attorney and press the issue now requires both the administration and the coach to keep their mouth shut until the police either charge Kramer or drop the case completely. I expect once that happens the administration will move on with some form of discipline for the coach.
I think the administration wanted to get past this whole issue with a simple apology from Kramer to Graves and that didn’t work. Graves escalated the situation because he wasn’t satisfied with an apology and wanted some kind of retribution, and now the administration is waiting for the police report. Right or wrong I don’t think Tingey ever expected that this simple act of coaching excess would have been raised to the level that it has been – and you know what - I agree!
2 things to that.
1.) we now live in the Internet/24hr news universe. You can't sit on anything anymore. You get out ahead of a scandal and kill it or if you don't it will kill you.
2.) the same thing happened with the booster situation. Martin sends JT an email saying we have a problem with a booster. JT fires back a "this could be considered slander" response and that leads to Martin going over the Administrations head. And everyone in that whole situation (coaches and the booster) end up mad at the administration, that ends up making ESPN and deadspin. And a situation that could have been probably handled better internally is now at the fate of the NCAA. This is now the 2nd time in the last 8 months a relativley small problem has wound up on ESPN.
If people can't learn from their mistakes then they shouldn't be in charge of a 10 million dollar athletic department.
P.S. Can we please pass the hat around to raise 50K to hire a public relations guru? Sure as heck seems like they have needed someone to advise ISU over the last few years.
1.) we now live in the Internet/24hr news universe. You can't sit on anything anymore. You get out ahead of a scandal and kill it or if you don't it will kill you.
2.) the same thing happened with the booster situation. Martin sends JT an email saying we have a problem with a booster. JT fires back a "this could be considered slander" response and that leads to Martin going over the Administrations head. And everyone in that whole situation (coaches and the booster) end up mad at the administration, that ends up making ESPN and deadspin. And a situation that could have been probably handled better internally is now at the fate of the NCAA. This is now the 2nd time in the last 8 months a relativley small problem has wound up on ESPN.
If people can't learn from their mistakes then they shouldn't be in charge of a 10 million dollar athletic department.
P.S. Can we please pass the hat around to raise 50K to hire a public relations guru? Sure as heck seems like they have needed someone to advise ISU over the last few years.
up for the challenge
Active member
I believe credit should be given to the local sports media for not interviewing the current players this past week.
notabengalalum
Active member
up for the challenge said:
Don't give them any ideas. They are so inept :dunce: they probably hadn't thought of that - until now, anyway! :lol:
up for the challenge
Active member
The news media in Pocatello has respect for the players privacy so no worries.
....QUESTION.....it doesn't look to me as if the film is from ISU football dept ( i think they film from the endzones)....looks like to me the video was shot with a cell phone camera?....if so...those batteries don't last a long time...plus who would film the entire practice on their cell phone (probably against ISU rules anyway)....SO DOESN'T IT SEEM REALLY "LUCKY" that whoever was filming just happened to have their camera on ...just as the altercation was taking place?.....what if Graves had previously decided he could "press" Kramer's buttons and get the results he wanted...and planned to capture it on film, etc from the get go........i'm not justifying what kramer did.....i just suggesting it could have been more of a set-up from the start .... 
FormerISUSID
Active member
E5Bengal said:
Considering that when I was there I made $48k, I think you'd have to pass the hat for more than that. I'm not sure what Steve makes, but I can say that the head of the university P.R. department Mike Levine is really sharp. I know when I was there, I leaned on that office when needed, and I do that here at UNM. That's usually a pretty good source for crisis management stuff, but I agree that in this day and age, you have to get out in front of things first...it's the number one thing.
It's very possible that's what ISU athletics wanted to do, and they were told not to...until all the facts are out on that front, everyone should hold back a bit on Jeff...he might be doing exactly what he was told. And honestly, could be Jeff, Paul, Senter, Howard, Irv, Bleymaier, anyone...these are always difficult and trying issues, and there is no perfect blueprint.
FormerISUSID
